Marriage and Atheism

[Trolldor]

where the religious laws are very closely tied up with a person's cultural identity

That is the fault of a populous who choose to respect 'cultural identity' to the point of isolation. It's an absurd ideal to assume that we should just leave people to their own cultural devices, it's not what we should be doing at all.

[Theophilus]

where the religious laws are very closely tied up with a person's cultural identity

That is the fault of a populous who choose to respect 'cultural identity' to the point of isolation. It's an absurd ideal to assume that we should just leave people to their own cultural devices, it's not what we should be doing at all.

Hmm, but what gives you the right to impose your culture on others? Or is it your impression that only other people live in cultures, and you are a neutral culture-free arbiter? Would you seek to deny me my cultural identity and freedom to follow my own religious practice (which includes accepting the cultural norms of my religion)?

[Trolldor]

It is my impression that you stop people living in ghettos. It's not about there being a superior culture, it's about stopping them from being Isolated.

[Theophilus]

It is my impression that you stop people living in ghettos. It's not about there being a superior culture, it's about stopping them from being Isolated.

How would you stop people "living in ghettos" (remembering that the people themselves may prefer to think of themselves living in "supportive communities of people who share a common belief and culture")? And how would you tackle those of us who interact quite normally in the real world but still have a cultural sense of identity which extends to respecting the norms of our faith community?

I think the thing is BAA that secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism on the rest of us, because we actually value our culture and value our community (the "cult" of the the "culture") too highly. We freely choose to live in a way that may seem too restricted to those outside of our community. Of course my culture is easily adapted to English culture, indeed the two are closely inter-twined, but I can still see how those from another cultural group (based on faith, ethnicity, or any other strong bond between people) may very much value their own culture and will never give it up. It seems to me that the secularist is doomed to failure and disappointment if what they wish see is an end to cultural identities and communities based on faith (or ethnicity); such homogeneity has never existed. No, I think Dr. Williams was right in that we need to consider how these different cultures can exist alongside each other.

[Trolldor]

secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism

You've got it wrong, again.

It's not about imposing anything, it's about stopping Isolationism. There is a huge difference between saying "Our culture is better" and "There are other ways of looking at things."

[Theophilus]

secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism

You've got it wrong, again.

It's not about imposing anything, it's about stopping Isolationism. There is a huge difference between saying "Our culture is better" and "There are other ways of looking at things."

Cool, so if people see there are other ways of looking at things (I always like to look at something from several angles myself) but still prefer to live within their own strong cultural/religious communities (with it's accepted norms and "laws"), that is O.K.?

[Thinking Aloud]

secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism

You've got it wrong, again.

It's not about imposing anything, it's about stopping Isolationism. There is a huge difference between saying "Our culture is better" and "There are other ways of looking at things."

Cool, so if people see there are other ways of looking at things (I always like to look at something from several angles myself) but still prefer to live within their own strong cultural/religious communities (with it's accepted norms and "laws"), that is O.K.?

As long as those norms and "laws" don't harm, threaten, un-necessarily restrict, deny rights, deny education, and so on, sure. And as long as no-one is prevented from leaving that culture/religion to further their own development, why not!

Unfortunately, that's so often the case, and frequently to the advantage of a privileged few.

[Trolldor]

Provided you've actually experienced cultures outside of your own, I don't care what you choose so long as you don't hurt or impose on anybody. That goes for everyone whether you belong to a minority or the majority.

There are, to my knowledge, third generation immigrants who can't speak a Word of English in Australia because they've been so culturally isolated. That's just language. Imagine what's happening in such cultures where there's so much distrust of outside forces.

[Theophilus]

Provided you've actually experienced cultures outside of your own, I don't care what you choose so long as you don't hurt or impose on anybody. That goes for everyone whether you belong to a minority or the majority.

That's cool; thanks for clarifying. Would you would agree that there is some age of maturity before which a parent takes responsibility for their child (and so will impose a certain will on them, making sure they attend school, go to bed at a certain time, teaching them good manners, taking them to church, ensuring they eat good food rather than just chocolate and crisps, ensuring they do their homework, ensuring they help around the house, for example). Would we agree that parents have prime responsibility and accountability for bringing up children with only broad limits set by society (e.g. don't beat or starve your child)?

[Trolldor]

I don't think any parent should have the right to tell their child what religion to follow, what political party to vote for, which race or culture is superior to all the others, which block of Mud called a country is the greatest.

[Thinking Aloud]

(and so will impose a certain will on them, making sure they attend school, go to bed at a certain time, teaching them good manners, taking them to church, ensuring they eat good food rather than just chocolate and crisps, ensuring they do their homework, ensuring they help around the house, for example)

The rest I'd consider to be excellent examples to set. The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

[Theophilus]

I don't think any parent should have the right to tell their child what religion to follow, what political party to vote for, which race or culture is superior to all the others, which block of Mud called a country is the greatest.

But I presume you wouldn't ban parents taking their children to church, mosque of synagogue?

I'm just trying to put this into a real life cultural setting BAA. I think this is a complex topic and I do have many sympathies with your view (would I want a child brought up a satanist?). So I'm pushing back on you to try to see how this fits into a real society where enculturation is not generally forcibly imposed (though it may be in some cases) but is actually a result of normal and hopefully loving parenting within a certain cultural environment. Most children are brought up accepting certain norms and values, as demonstrated by their parents and many of them will carry those values through their lives, albeit with a usual rebellious phase in the teens and early twenties, usually returning to the values of their parents when they themselves have children. The Jesuits, of course had their famous saying "give me the boy until he is eight and I'll give you the man", recognising how important and formative the early years are.

[Theophilus]

The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

So who decides what is of value and what not? You and I don't share all the same values (though I imagine there will a substantial overlap), and I'm cool with that. But when it comes to my culture and my children why should I accept your values (and vice versa)? Though perhaps you're not arguing that I should accept your values?

[Trolldor]

Everything or nothing. If a child is considered able to be adopted to a religion, then the child should be brought to all religions. If the child isn't considered capable of choosing a religion for himself, then you are not to choose one for him.

[Thinking Aloud]

The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

So who decides what is of value and what not? You and I don't share all the same values (though I imagine there will a substantial overlap), and I'm cool with that. But when it comes to my culture and my children why should I accept your values (and vice versa)? Though perhaps you're not arguing that I should accept your values?

I can't force you to, and I wouldn't force you to, much as I'd perhaps like to convince you! Having spent the best part of my life going to church, I'm of the opinion that it added nothing positive to my existence, and if anything added unnecessary repression, anxiety, fear and superiority to my mindset for too many years - a position I'm still recovering from.

I see no value in anyone taking children to church, or encouraging belief in something through faith.