Reconciling Old and New Testament

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Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Sun May 15, 2011 11:30 pm

Having a discussion with my christian pal at work, Wayne. I've been trying to explain to him why he can't just overlook the bad things in the old testament. He gave me the usual god can do what he wants, god destroyed his old law to make a new one for everyone, the old testament was specifically for the jews, Christ changed everything, blah blah blah.

"So the ten commandments no longer apply?" was my reply. He responded that Jesus upheld the ten commandments specifically, but I only remember Jesus talking about the "law" or "old law"...... I think, never specifically THE ten.

I don't know how he can reconcile this in his head. Oh well, here are his responses in full. Tell me what you think. To me it's just another example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too, no matter what mental gymnastics you have to do to get there. In Wayne's defense, he's young and was heavily indoctrinated.
Wayne wrote:Ur reasoning is very logical from the fleshly standpoint.When Jesus was baptized God passed all things to him. Saying this is my son, hear ye him. The old testament spoke in Isaiah of him and how he would fulfill the old law prophecy and create a new law.I will give u scriptures later.Then in the new testament which is seperate from God's old testament being that it is Christ's says that buy being nailed to the cross he nailed down the old law. People who follow the old law today cannot do it because it is obsolete which is why they can't even tithe right. We don't stone because its inhumane and bunches of other stuff. When Jesus took on the Sadducees and Pharisess they uphelp the old law and Jesus thwarted their attempts with his law which had not come into effect yet until he died. New testament also says that the old testament is the school master of the new and that the bible confounds the wise in the flesh. Its kinda like our look to for juducial review in our constitution. The Jews thought that they were the holy priest hood but when christ came and they would not hear or accept his new law which God allowed, he made salvation accessible to the gentiles which is anyone now jew. That is the second thing that makes the new testament The new law. When it speakes that the law wil never change it speaks of the new testament being that the old prophets themselves spoke of the turning of the people and a savior to come.I'll get the scriptures later when I am not busy.Maybe sunday
Wayne wrote:There is no altercational relationship between the two.Christ had to use the old law against the jews in reference to himself simply because his law was not in effect yet, but he used to to tell them that he was God himself and that he was coming with a more complete law. To use the scripture that says that scripture can't be unbroken,is valid. But God being the creater can obviously destroy and remake whatever he chooses as he did when he did die. Before that he said that he would destroy and rebuild the temple in 3 days. The jews thought he meant their physical temple and they were mocking him and were equally offended but eh spoke of himself, not the physical temple and so his resurrection reflected the destruction of the old temple(which was the old law) and when he rose again the new law was then in effect by his sacrifice, as God himself in lowly flesh sacrificed himself. He killed his own law to remake one for all with all new power reflecting still upon the old law but with his own divine revising which no mortal man could do because he is not God. All the explanations were clear because all he did was explain but the Jews didn't recieve it while gentiles readily did.

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 15, 2011 11:34 pm

Love your sig. :hehe:
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Feck » Sun May 15, 2011 11:59 pm

Pontius I am now worried I read your sig and Bella has a bigger post count than I do .... HALP she knows where I live !!!!!!
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Mon May 16, 2011 12:04 am

According to my sig, my member is virtually non-existent....

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 16, 2011 12:06 am

pontius-ft wrote:According to my sig, my member is virtually non-existent....
:console:
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Feck » Mon May 16, 2011 12:19 am

Almost all Xians do not study the babble , they ignore all the evidence of sources, they ignore the linguistic analysis of the dates . They have already decided to believe ten impossible things before breakfast . Even before the new testament was written the old one had been extensively re-written in line with the idea of mono theism that swept the joos after the got out of (yet another ) exile .

The New testament was written generations after Jebus and the original sources have been lost . Almost all of the new testament is Paulism (the great liar ) . Instead of asking your Xian friends about the break ,the new covenant rather ask how they conveniently ignore the old if and only IF they have been told it is not in accordance with the new . If Jebus came to replace the law why did he not EVER say that ? Take Jebus out of the context of the OT and what do you have ? The authority ,the heritage of Jebus is based in the OT without that He is nothing .

Not that it matters Theists are blind gullible liars and the best thing for them is to be nailed up in imitation of their hero and left for the crows ( that was personal opinion ... as valid as the special pleading they resort too when asked for evidence )
Last edited by Feck on Mon May 16, 2011 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Bella Fortuna » Mon May 16, 2011 12:21 am

I'll get the scriptures later when I am not busy.Maybe sunday
:hilarious: Cos of course he'd have nothing to do on Sunday...
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Mon May 16, 2011 12:31 am

Ah ha, forgot about these!
conversationalatheist.com wrote:New Testament Verses:

Ephesians 6:5-9 (NRSV)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

Christian slaves – treat your masters well. Christian slave masters are directly addressed, and told to treat their slaves well.

Colossians 3:22-25 (NRSV)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality.

Christian slaves, wholeheartedly obey your masters in everything. If they treat you badly, know that they will get punishment in the next life.

1 Timothy 6:1-5 (NRSV)

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Christian slaves, obey your masters well – and obey your Christian masters especially well. Anyone who teaches otherwise is going against the words of Jesus, and has a morbid craving for disputes about words.

Titus 2:9-10,15 (NRSV)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. … Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

Christian slaves, be submissive to your masters. This teaching should be exhorted with authority. Do not let anyone look down on you for advocating slavery.

I think that any self-proclaimed Bible believer should be ashamed of the Bible’s stance on slavery.

An interesting way to sow some cognitive dissonance in the Christian who honestly believes that slavery is wrong AND that the Bible is the word of God is to challenge him as to whether he is ashamed of the Bible’s stance.

If not, would he loudly “declare with all authority” that “slaves should be submissive to their masters?”

If he is hesitant to do that, really try to get him to discover why he’s hesitating.

1 Peter 2:15-20 (NRSV)

For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.

Christian slaves who have harsh and unjust masters – you will be credited for enduring pain while suffering unjustly.

Remember: you have God’s approval. The verse above continues:

1 Peter 2:21-25 (NRSV)

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were going astray like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

Christian slaves! As the Bible says, “Don’t rise up against your oppressors, you have the perfect example for you, remember: Jesus didn’t fight back at all.”

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Feck » Mon May 16, 2011 12:37 am

OT, lies about a genocidal god ... NT, total Gobshite :levi:
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Hermit » Mon May 16, 2011 12:49 am

Pontius-ft, Wayne is also engaging in cherrypicking, in this case by ignoring the bits where Christ is very much like the cruel and jealous god of the Old Testament. Some examples:

Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you. [Matthew 11:21-24]

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. [Luke 19:27]

Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. [Matthew 11:31-32]

Also, as you have noted, in order to dismiss the god of the old testament in favour of the new, the mental gymnastics are quite extraordinary. It is beyond me how

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. [Matthew 5: 17, 18]

can be interpreted as the end of the old covenant and the start of the new.
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Mon May 16, 2011 1:06 am

I guess it could be argued that god isn't specifically endorsing slavery in my last post. It can be argued that it's more like what to do for those who are in the position of being a slave. But it never says anything against owning slaves.

Well then, I'll have to focus on his cherry-picking ways. If you say it overrides the bad stuff, what about the "good" stuff? To me the law means all of it, and Jesus said he came to fulfill it. Not to mention all the "prophecies".

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Mon May 16, 2011 1:12 am

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (I John 2:4)

I quoted scripture to him already, not even this made him think. He just responded like a robot.

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Feck » Mon May 16, 2011 1:14 am

Make up some scripture ?
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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by pontius-ft » Mon May 16, 2011 1:19 am

Feck wrote:Make up some scripture ?
Hahaha, that would be hilarious if he bought it but I'm trying to reach this one. I felt there was hope. Now I'm not so sure.

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Re: Reconciling Old and New Testament

Post by Tero » Mon May 16, 2011 1:41 am

I dunno, I never get too far with the OT, but it seems pretty randomly compiled. Way too long. 10 commandments would have been better.

The people who made up the NT did a better job. Just too many prophecies and loonies at the end. And now NEW comamandments.

That said, the best part of the Bibble is in the OT
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/ecclesiastes.html

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