Libertarianism is the best ideology

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Daan
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Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Daan » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:35 pm

Just wanting some good old RD-website ahum ' discussion' to return. Seems like great fun. :drunk: :cheers:

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:39 pm

Daan wrote:Just wanting some good old RD-website ahum ' discussion' to return. Seems like great fun. :drunk: :cheers:
I think the problem with libertarianism is Libertarians.

I like a lot of the concepts, but I lean towards small "r" republicanism, acknowledge the need for a government for more than just national defense and I think the Libertarians narrow the role of government too much. Regulating commerce is a proper function for government.

I think Jeffersonian liberalism is a superior philosophy to libertarianism, but there is a lot of overlap.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Mysturji » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:42 pm

Everyone is a social libertarian.
All the rest are idiots.
(But that's their right.)
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:44 pm

Mysturji wrote:Everyone is a social libertarian.
All the rest are idiots.
(But that's their right.)
Not strictly - I know many on both sides of the political spectrum who view regulation of social issues like "smoking," "drug use," "drinking," "movie and video game ratings," etc. as perfectly fine. Many people who claim to be socially libertarian are not strictly socially libertarian.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by noncredo » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:31 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Mysturji wrote:Everyone is a social libertarian.
All the rest are idiots.
(But that's their right.)
Not strictly - I know many on both sides of the political spectrum who view regulation of social issues like "smoking," "drug use," "drinking," "movie and video game ratings," etc. as perfectly fine. Many people who claim to be socially libertarian are not strictly socially libertarian.
I have noticed this as well, and not just with libertarian types. A lot of people are liberal as long as they can choose what they are liberal about and what the def. of liberal is. My parents think we should all be free to choose which protastant church we go to and we should all be free to marry anyone of the opposite sex we want. They think that's pretty liberal minded since they would even allow people to...wait for it...marry people of different races...gasp. I have a friend who thinks all drugs should be illegal...except the ones he uses, those are obviously harmless. It's easy to be socially liberty minded as long as you agree with society...gets a bit harder for some when they try to agree to allowing liberty for people who would do things they think are just plain wrong.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Mysturji » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:51 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Mysturji wrote:Everyone is a social libertarian.
All the rest are idiots.
(But that's their right.)
Not strictly - I know many on both sides of the political spectrum who view regulation of social issues like "smoking," "drug use," "drinking," "movie and video game ratings," etc. as perfectly fine. Many people who claim to be socially libertarian are not strictly socially libertarian.
That's because they're idiots.
It's a free world. :dono:
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Cormac wrote:Doom predictors have been with humans right through our history. They are like the proverbial stopped clock - right twice a day, but not due to the efficacy of their prescience.
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Godless Libertarian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:00 pm

to take the bait or not to take the bait

:think:
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:43 pm

Godless Libertarian wrote:to take the bait or not to take the bait

:think:
Take the bait!

Master it, if you will...

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Matt H » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:13 pm

Mysturji wrote:Everyone is a social libertarian.
All the rest are idiots.
(But that's their right.)
I had this discussion with a friend while in a pub recently. He classifies himself as social libertarian, because there are three 'social' categories:

1. Social liberal, where you think the government shouldn't get involved in people's private lives because it isn't morally right

2. Social libertarian, where you think the government shouldn't get involved because the government has no place in a person's private life

3. Social religious liberal, where you think the government shouldn't get involved in people's private lives because that's god's job and god loves everyone.

I'd classify myself as 1.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Peter Brown » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:48 pm

I think my politics falls under the concept that each situation has to be judge separately at the group and individual level. Politics these days have too many dead end stances and a nation isn’t that black and white.

There will be times when a right wing approach is better than a left wing one or vice versa. But right now it’s all about being in the red or blue party, and this I feel solves none of the deep issues.

Politics of the football ground, that is what we have.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by NineOneFour » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:39 am

Oh, fine, I'll take the bait. I'm going to use "Libertarianism" in it's commonly known Rothbard/Rand/Hayek/Nock/Friedman/Norquist sort of way.

Libertarianism isn't the best, nor the worst ideology.

Libertarianism is the elevation of inordinate selfishness to a virtue and is a sociopolitical philosophy built upon that assumption.

Objectivists are merely a subset of modern Libertarians.

Libertarians at least have the concept of civil liberties down. Few libertarians would vote against gay marriage, legalization of drugs, legalization of prostitution, or legalization of gambling.

Ron Paul is a homophobic, racist, creationist assclown. And there's no two ways about it. His prominence in Libertarian circles indicates that a lot of them only pay lip service to the concept of civil rights and what really drives them is economics. A libertarian will start talking about economics; many of them solely talk about economics.

And the lack of empathy that some have for their fellow citizens is, in this poster's opinion, appalling to say the least.

But I'd vote for a Libertarian over a Republican any day of the week. And I'd rather have Libertarians frequenting forums that I post on than Republicans any day of the week. At least you can attempt to reason with Libertarians. With Conservatives, it just degenerates into AAAUUGGGGHHHH UNAMERICAN TELEPROMPTER PALIN TEABAGGING BBLLLLEEEAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH.

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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by eXcommunicate » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:14 am

I said it many times on RDF -- I'd rather the U.S.'s 2 main parties be The Progressives vs. The Libertarians rather than the clusterfuck we have now. At least Progressives and Libertarians can agree on a few key social policies, whereas I can't find myself agreeing with one damn thing a modern Republican politician says.

Right now we have a batshit insane Republican Party with all kinds of testosterone, who might inexplicably start winning seats come 2010 even after driving the country into the ditch like they did, and a Centrist Democratic Party with a lot of great individuals here and there, but as a whole has no cajones whatsoever. Defeating the current crop of Republicans should be a piece of fucking cake, but not for the dunderheads running the DNC. They couldn't find a coherent message or agenda if it bit them in the ass.
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by Wise Bass » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:27 am

Libertarianism always struck me as somewhat self-contradictory in its usual definition. Most libertarians, for example, don't have a problem with the state re-distributing income to provide equitable police and firefighter coverage, but they have a problem with redistributing income to address other perceived social priorities (like inadequacy in the provision of education, and the like).

The usual retort is that police coverage is a "public good" unlike, say, Medicaid.
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by MrJonno » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:48 am

Libertarians and christian nuts both believe in nature rights which trump democracy, reason and debate. This is quite plainly bollocks the fact they get these rights from different non-existant sources doesnt make then any less wrong.

All rights including that of not having your head smashed in when you are born are a product of the society you live in. No society no rights, no rights to life, no rights to private property (in fact there is no such thing as private property without a functioning society/government).

You can argue about individual policies with libertarians and its possible but you might have something in common BUT its the very core principles, the very core values and assumptions of libertarians I find repulsive
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Re: Libertarianism is the best ideology

Post by NineOneFour » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:02 am

Wise Bass wrote:Libertarianism always struck me as somewhat self-contradictory in its usual definition. Most libertarians, for example, don't have a problem with the state re-distributing income to provide equitable police and firefighter coverage, but they have a problem with redistributing income to address other perceived social priorities (like inadequacy in the provision of education, and the like).

The usual retort is that police coverage is a "public good" unlike, say, Medicaid.
It's been my experience that Libertarians like government when they use it, and don't when they figure they won't use it.

It's like all the teabaggers protesting high taxes. Most of them are on social security.

Hellllloooooo?

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