Anyone for Democracy? (Zombie Coup derail)

[Scot Dutchy]

Call it what you will but a democracy it is not.

[Scot Dutchy]

Republic is a bit different from "democracy." But the US, and EU, are federations.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic

We are not a republic or did you not notice. We are not even a federation. We are loose union at European level.

[Scot Dutchy]

In fact the USA is a joke.

[JimC]

Scot, I don't think you can bluntly say "the US is not a democracy". Democracy is a broad and fuzzy concept, with many iterations around the world. The versions differ greatly in detail, and the also differ in "fairness". Fairness in voting is probably hard to define exactly, but to me it involves how equal the vote of each voter is, and whether there are any restrictions on voting for spurious reasons, and whether there is true corruption involved.

On those grounds, somewhere like Russia has a very low level of fairness, and perhaps is a democracy in name only. Taking your description of the democratic process in the Netherlands at face value, you would rank very high on the fairness scale (as would some other northern European countries). This does not mean "pure democracy", which is unattainable in modern nation states. Australia probably ranks a little lower, but we have a very fair and systematic Electoral Commission. I've already in a previous post discussed some of the serious flaws that can be observed in the US system, and it would have a fairly low rating within that loose group of "western democracies". But it still remains a democracy, IMO, and whatever corruption exists is mainly in the ways that some state legislators try to control federal voting so as to favour their own party. This last flaw is appalling, is largely Republican in the present, but is probably impossible to remove because of the absurdities inherent in the original constitution in terms of state powers.

[Joe]

In fact the USA is a joke.

Thank you for making my point.

Right now, you sound like you're blowing smoke about what you know, and substituting prejudice for erudition.

It's been fun to see you meltdown though, and demonstrate your lack of comprehension posting all these arguments that the US is a Republic. It's like you can't comprehend what I wrote.

To me, I divide the flaws in democratic voting systems into 3 categories. The first is the way in which elected representatives are chosen - district based, first past the post, preference based, proportional, whatever. Each country has its own version, and I'm prepared to concede that some are fairer than others - perhaps the Netherlands version is indeed one of the better ones.

The second is how the party system, and the associated personality cult of party leaders takes election campaigning away from rational debate on policies into emotive nonsense. Power struggles within parties, and parliamentary debate which degenerates into juvenile name calling are part of this, and responsible for some of the disregard in which politicians are held.

Both of these are not fatal flaws, and can be at least managed. The third set of flaws is corrupt and dangerous. It is where politicians, and the party machines they are owned by, deliberately pervert the process of elections to their own advantage. It is mostly present where independent bodies (such as the Australian Electoral Commission) are no longer in control of all aspects of elections.

Gerrymandering of electoral boundaries is the obvious example. Making rules about who is eligible to vote, which in a statistical sense reduce voting options for certain demographics is another, and finally the ability to actually reject voting results from particular areas on spurious grounds is another. From all accounts, these egregious flaws are increasingly a blot on the democratic landscape of the USA...

Did you know that the people of Colorado stripped the redistricting power from the state Assembly for both federal and state legislative offices in 2018?

This was done by 2 amendments to the state constitution via the initiative process that set up an independent commission, and passed with 71 percent of the vote. Yeah, Coloradans can amend the constitution, make law, repeal laws, and recall elected officials by binding referendum. We're not the only state that has some form of this either.

That's a fair amount of direct democracy for a stodgy old republic.

I always keep this in mind when I think about this stuff. Our federal government is set up to advantage the elites and dampen popular movements, but it can't completely stymie them. When a critical mass is hit, things can change quickly. Colorado was one of four states that changed how they redistrict between 2010 and 2020. Maybe there's hope.

Of course, if a Republic is not a representative democracy, then neither is a monarchy.

[Tero]

No, the terms. "Republic" and "democracy" are not related in that way. They relate to different things.

If the US is undemocratic, it has more to do with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC than the setup of the states. Money runs in. Under capitalism the citizens have very little to say. Corporations run this country.

[Tero]

Continuing on that, we liberals are fighting trumpsters over the small part of life that we, or they, have control of. The rest is run by corporations.

My state, despite being red, has public utilities. The state owns it and contractors operate the facilities. In Texas, corporations run utilities.

[JimC]

Tero, I agree that corporate capitalism tends to undermine democracy. This happens all over the world, but probably to a greater extent in the US. Even if politicians are not directly and corruptly bought by corporate funds, their ability to lobby and persuade politicians, plus strong corporate influence over the media means that their money can translate into political power wielded in their own interests.

But I still think you have a very serious threat to democracy in some states, as Trump diehard Republicans use the constitutional powers of their states to push the electoral process to favour Republican candidates...

[Tero]

Many states are run by Republicans and corporations. Texas, Oklahoma. The effort is to reduce federal regulation and then take over states that have resources. Fracking has been a big part of it. Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Blowout-Corrupte ... 136&sr=8-3
She is a liberal journalist. Her TV host salary made her a millionaire.

[Scot Dutchy]

Of course, if a Republic is not a representative democracy, then neither is a monarchy.

Your ignorance is badly showing Joe. In Europe monarchies dont exist. Not a single country is a monarchy except Monaco. All European royal families have no power but of course you did not know that. They are handy to roll out when you have visitors. There are republics that are representative democracies but the USA fails at all counts as I have explained in previous postings.

Keep going Joe you may find something one day in that corrupt plutocracy. I will just carry on living in my directly elected democracy and enjoy my true freedoms. You still have not answered why this country is not a democracy. Go on try.

[Joe]

In fact the USA is a joke.

Thank you for making my point.

Right now, you sound like you're blowing smoke about what you know, and substituting prejudice for erudition.

It's been fun to see you meltdown though, and demonstrate your lack of comprehension posting all these arguments that the US is a Republic. It's like you can't comprehend what I wrote.

To me, I divide the flaws in democratic voting systems into 3 categories. The first is the way in which elected representatives are chosen - district based, first past the post, preference based, proportional, whatever. Each country has its own version, and I'm prepared to concede that some are fairer than others - perhaps the Netherlands version is indeed one of the better ones.

The second is how the party system, and the associated personality cult of party leaders takes election campaigning away from rational debate on policies into emotive nonsense. Power struggles within parties, and parliamentary debate which degenerates into juvenile name calling are part of this, and responsible for some of the disregard in which politicians are held.

Both of these are not fatal flaws, and can be at least managed. The third set of flaws is corrupt and dangerous. It is where politicians, and the party machines they are owned by, deliberately pervert the process of elections to their own advantage. It is mostly present where independent bodies (such as the Australian Electoral Commission) are no longer in control of all aspects of elections.

Gerrymandering of electoral boundaries is the obvious example. Making rules about who is eligible to vote, which in a statistical sense reduce voting options for certain demographics is another, and finally the ability to actually reject voting results from particular areas on spurious grounds is another. From all accounts, these egregious flaws are increasingly a blot on the democratic landscape of the USA...

Did you know that the people of Colorado stripped the redistricting power from the state Assembly for both federal and state legislative offices in 2018?

This was done by 2 amendments to the state constitution via the initiative process that set up an independent commission, and passed with 71 percent of the vote. Yeah, Coloradans can amend the constitution, make law, repeal laws, and recall elected officials by binding referendum. We're not the only state that has some form of this either.

That's a fair amount of direct democracy for a stodgy old republic.

I always keep this in mind when I think about this stuff. Our federal government is set up to advantage the elites and dampen popular movements, but it can't completely stymie them. When a critical mass is hit, things can change quickly. Colorado was one of four states that changed how they redistrict between 2010 and 2020. Maybe there's hope.

Of course, if a Republic is not a representative democracy, then neither is a monarchy.

Your ignorance is badly showing Joe. In Europe monarchies dont exist. Not a single country is a monarchy except Monaco. All European royal families have no power but of course you did not know that. They are handy to roll out when you have visitors. There are republics that are representative democracies but the USA fails at all counts as I have explained in previous postings.

Keep going Joe you may find something one day in that corrupt plutocracy. I will just carry on living in my directly elected democracy and enjoy my true freedoms. You still have not answered why this country is not a democracy. Go on try.

Well, I can understand why you would want to hide your embarrassment, but I've restored the my entire post to include the quote you so carefully edited out. You sure looked foolish proclaiming the US is a republic when I called it one in the first place. Better work on your English reading comprehension.

Speaking of reading comprehension. It's nice of the Netherlands to offer an English version of their website so I can prove you wrong again.

Constitutional monarchy

The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy. This means that the head of state is a King or Queen whose powers are laid down in the Constitution.

In the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited. Under the Constitution, the ministers, and not the monarch, are responsible for what the Government does.

It's good they keep your King under control, but it doesn't change the fact that the Netherlands calls itself a monarchy. I'll take their word for it over yours every time.

As for proving the Netherlands is a not a democracy, I have no need to. Perhaps you should have read the link I provided before responding. Once again, your poor reading skills have let you down.

[pErvinalia]

Speaking of reading comprehension. It's nice of the Netherlands to offer an English version of their website so I can prove you wrong again.

Constitutional monarchy

The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy. This means that the head of state is a King or Queen whose powers are laid down in the Constitution.

In the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited. Under the Constitution, the ministers, and not the monarch, are responsible for what the Government does.

It's good they keep your King under control, but it doesn't change the fact that the Netherlands calls itself a monarchy. I'll take their word for it over yours every time.

That's just what the dictators want you to think. You've been drinking the kool-aid. Chumocracy!

[Brian Peacock]

That's a fair amount of direct democracy for a stodgy old republic.

That has FA to do with democracy. It is power tinkering. No two states are the same. At federal level it is totally corrupt. Just why is every state allowed to have different rules concerning federal elections? Even different voting systems? Why? Corruption.

When all regions within all nations have the same democratic institutions and operate the same democratic processes, then they will be truly democratic -- IFF they look exactly like the NL. Right?

[pErvinalia]

Scot just can't grasp the concept of a Republic. Everything has to be a Monarchy like the Netherlands or else it is shit..

[Svartalf]

I have a perfect concept of the republic. While the literal meaning would be bublic stripe or streak, French parlance would understand it as public crack, in which the président de la raie publique dives to sodomize the country at large and those of its inhabitants that are not his direct supporters more individually.