Anyone for Democracy? (Zombie Coup derail)

[Brian Peacock]

there's nothing inherently undemocratic about a representative democracy - it just depends on whose interests the representatives are representing.

[Scot Dutchy]

The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy. This means that the head of state is a King or Queen whose powers are laid down in the Constitution.

Which are zilch but of course insulting Joe just not realise. The Cabinet is not responsible for government but the Tweedekamer is. They are the elected body and have total democratic power. A concept unknown to the USA.
All he believes has been fed into him as an American child and he is incapable to think outside that box. The USA is a corrupt plutocracy and prove it otherwise but you cant and you cant find anything to prove this country is not a democracy so therefore you resort to personal insults.
You are pathetic Joe. Do you say the oath every morning and raise the flag. You sound like it.

[Svartalf]

there's nothing inherently undemocratic about a representative democracy - it just depends on whose interests the representatives are representing.

Given that the reps will seldom actually know their constituent, but do know they were elected because they were part of the party machine and that said machine selected them because they know the right people, and know whom to listen to to improve their chance of keeping the job, they know which way their bread is buttered, which about inevitable leads to corruption and distancing from the voter base, ergo, the theory is nice, but has nothing to do with reality. Representative republics always lead to a deficit of democracy.

[Svartalf]

The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy. This means that the head of state is a King or Queen whose powers are laid down in the Constitution.

Which are zilch but of course insulting Joe just not realise. The Cabinet is not responsible for government but the Tweedekamer is. They are the elected body and have total democratic power. A concept unknown to the USA.
All he believes has been fed into him as an American child and he is incapable to think outside that box. The USA is a corrupt plutocracy and prove it otherwise but you cant and you cant find anything to prove this country is not a democracy so therefore you resort to personal insults.
You are pathetic Joe. Do you say the oath every morning and raise the flag. You sound like it.

the Tweedekamer is reponsible for government? ok, so they are the legislative body, but just who writes the laws they vote on?

[Scot Dutchy]

The Cabinet or the Tweedekamer can introduce legislation. This is then debated by the Tweedekamer and approved before being passed on to the Eerstenkamer or Senaat. The Senaat can only approve or disapprove it cannot introduce amendments. Senaat has no say over financial bills and cannot introduce any legislation.

[Joe]

In fact the USA is a joke.

Thank you for making my point.

Right now, you sound like you're blowing smoke about what you know, and substituting prejudice for erudition.

It's been fun to see you meltdown though, and demonstrate your lack of comprehension posting all these arguments that the US is a Republic. It's like you can't comprehend what I wrote.

Did you know that the people of Colorado stripped the redistricting power from the state Assembly for both federal and state legislative offices in 2018?

This was done by 2 amendments to the state constitution via the initiative process that set up an independent commission, and passed with 71 percent of the vote. Yeah, Coloradans can amend the constitution, make law, repeal laws, and recall elected officials by binding referendum. We're not the only state that has some form of this either.

That's a fair amount of direct democracy for a stodgy old republic.

I always keep this in mind when I think about this stuff. Our federal government is set up to advantage the elites and dampen popular movements, but it can't completely stymie them. When a critical mass is hit, things can change quickly. Colorado was one of four states that changed how they redistrict between 2010 and 2020. Maybe there's hope.

Of course, if a Republic is not a representative democracy, then neither is a monarchy.

Your ignorance is badly showing Joe. In Europe monarchies dont exist. Not a single country is a monarchy except Monaco. All European royal families have no power but of course you did not know that. They are handy to roll out when you have visitors. There are republics that are representative democracies but the USA fails at all counts as I have explained in previous postings.

Keep going Joe you may find something one day in that corrupt plutocracy. I will just carry on living in my directly elected democracy and enjoy my true freedoms. You still have not answered why this country is not a democracy. Go on try.

Well, I can understand why you would want to hide your embarrassment, but I've restored the my entire post to include the quote you so carefully edited out. You sure looked foolish proclaiming the US is a republic when I called it one in the first place. Better work on your English reading comprehension.

Speaking of reading comprehension. It's nice of the Netherlands to offer an English version of their website so I can prove you wrong again.

Constitutional monarchy

The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy. This means that the head of state is a King or Queen whose powers are laid down in the Constitution.

In the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited. Under the Constitution, the ministers, and not the monarch, are responsible for what the Government does.

It's good they keep your King under control, but it doesn't change the fact that the Netherlands calls itself a monarchy. I'll take their word for it over yours every time.

As for proving the Netherlands is a not a democracy, I have no need to. Perhaps you should have read the link I provided before responding. Once again, your poor reading skills have let you down.

Which are zilch but of course insulting Joe just not realise. The Cabinet is not responsible for government but the Tweedekamer is. They are the elected body and have total democratic power. A concept unknown to the USA.
All he believes has been fed into him as an American child and he is incapable to think outside that box. The USA is a corrupt plutocracy and prove it otherwise but you cant and you cant find anything to prove this country is not a democracy so therefore you resort to personal insults.
You are pathetic Joe. Do you say the oath every morning and raise the flag. You sound like it.

Cherry picking my posts again, Scot? Poor guy, it's kind of hard to say the kingdom of the Netherlands isn't a monarchy when they say they are. Unlike you, your government sees the distinction between its form and its processes. I can understand why you might want to hide that.

As for my education, I learned to read English as a child, as you presumably did. That is why I chide you for your poor reading comprehension. You show it again by insisting I prove the Netherlands is not a democracy. It demonstrates how poorly you read, since I didn't make that claim.

I'm amused by your feeble attempts at insults though. You're not even good at that. Seriously, "think outside that box" is about the most hackneyed and unimaginative phrase of recent years.

[Joe]

Scot just can't grasp the concept of a Republic. Everything has to be a Monarchy like the Netherlands or else it is shit..

Yeahbut, Scot says the Kingdom of the Netherlands is not a monarchy.

I got it! It's a faerie monarchy.

[Scot Dutchy]

Once again insulting Joe you go to the gutter and you cant get out it.
You have no arguments against the USA being a corrupt plutocracy or even a kleptocracy (well Trump stole it). So insults are your final resort. It is not worth discussing with you. I have asked so often why is this country not a democracy or the USA is. Still no reply. Yet when you find you have the slightest point you grab onto it for dear life even though you are completely wrong.
Look up what a kingdom is and what a monarchy is. Before you slip further into the quagmire of ignorance.
Our king has no power whatsoever.

[Joe]

Once again insulting Joe you go to the gutter and you cant get out it.
You have no arguments against the USA being a corrupt plutocracy or even a kleptocracy (well Trump stole it). So insults are your final resort. It is not worth discussing with you. I have asked so often why is this country not a democracy or the USA is. Still no reply. Yet when you find you have the slightest point you grab onto it for dear life even though you are completely wrong.
Look up what a kingdom is and what a monarchy is. Before you slip further into the quagmire of ignorance.
Our king has no power whatsoever.

Well Scot, since I've decisively made my point using your government's website, I'll dismiss your blather as mere posturing. You have no argument except whining.

If you think you've been insulted, take it up with the moderators.

[Scot Dutchy]

Once again insulting Joe you go to the gutter and you cant get out it.
You have no arguments against the USA being a corrupt plutocracy or even a kleptocracy (well Trump stole it). So insults are your final resort. It is not worth discussing with you. I have asked so often why is this country not a democracy or the USA is. Still no reply. Yet when you find you have the slightest point you grab onto it for dear life even though you are completely wrong.
Look up what a kingdom is and what a monarchy is. Before you slip further into the quagmire of ignorance.
Our king has no power whatsoever.

Well Scot, since I've decisively made my point using your government's website, I'll dismiss your blather as mere posturing. You have no argument except whining.

If you think you've been insulted, take it up with the moderators.

Never mind Joe. We have moved a long way to proving the USA is not a democracy to whether we have a monarchy in this country the relevance of which as no influence on this country but the corruption taking place in your plutocracy does.
I like it when my vote counts.

[Joe]

Once again insulting Joe you go to the gutter and you cant get out it.
You have no arguments against the USA being a corrupt plutocracy or even a kleptocracy (well Trump stole it). So insults are your final resort. It is not worth discussing with you. I have asked so often why is this country not a democracy or the USA is. Still no reply. Yet when you find you have the slightest point you grab onto it for dear life even though you are completely wrong.
Look up what a kingdom is and what a monarchy is. Before you slip further into the quagmire of ignorance.
Our king has no power whatsoever.

Well Scot, since I've decisively made my point using your government's website, I'll dismiss your blather as mere posturing. You have no argument except whining.

If you think you've been insulted, take it up with the moderators.

Never mind Joe. We have moved a long way to proving the USA is not a democracy to whether we have a monarchy in this country the relevance of which as no influence on this country but the corruption taking place in your plutocracy does.
I like it when my vote counts.

I will take that as a concession Scott, since I never claimed the US is a democracy, and have weighed in on my country's problems enough that I don't need to repeat myself to the likes of you. You have a clear emotional bias against the US, so it would be pointless.

As for the fact that the Netherlands is a monarchy, you were the person making the erroneous claim that it wasn't. In fact, had you actually tried to understand what I wrote and followed my link

Of course, if a Republic is not a representative democracy, then neither is a monarchy.

you would have seen the statement that

Globally, a majority of the world's people live in representative democracies including constitutional monarchies and republics with strong representative branches.

suggesting that both of our countries are representative democracies.

Instead, you removed the link when you quoted me. Bad Dutchy!

I like my vote counting as well. It was especially nice when my vote helped end gerrymandering in my state. I like voting to approve or disapprove all new taxes, tax rate increases, extensions of expiring taxes, mill levy increases, valuation for property assessment increases, or tax policy changes resulting in increased tax revenue for the state, county and city as well. My vote helped allow both medical and recreational marijuana use and possession here. My vote helped open our party primaries to unaffiliated voters. My vote helped increase the minimum wage twice.

There's more, and state level direct democracy is actually what this started with, but whatever. You do you.

[Scot Dutchy]

Once again you have said FA. Your country is a corrupt plutocracy accept and move on. It is no where under any circumstances a democracy.
I never removed anything. Did you just dig up a load of crap and and think it is an argument? You are talking guff.
Where are your arguments that the Netherlands is not a democracy? I have proven enough that your country is a plutocracy or even a kleptocracy but never with the best will in the world is it a democracy. Just give your arguments pure and simple and stop waffling which is something you are pretty good at. Telling facts is not.
Leave the insults btw. Thank fuck almighty I dont live there.

[Hermit]

Where are your arguments that the Netherlands is not a democracy?

Joe never argued that the Netherlands is not a democracy.

[Scot Dutchy]

Where are your arguments that the Netherlands is not a democracy?

Joe never argued that the Netherlands is not a democracy.

What is he waffling on about then?

This will satisfy his woolly boots:

[Hermit]

Where are your arguments that the Netherlands is not a democracy?

Joe never argued that the Netherlands is not a democracy.

What is he waffling on about then?

You'll find out what Joe actually wrote if you read his words rather than what you read into them.

This will satisfy his woolly boots:

The waffling of a crank who claims that "A democracy always degenerates into dictatorship" and who wrote that the Alaska Mental Health Bill of 1956 was a communist conspiracy to establish concentration camps on American soil is not going to impress him.