Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by JimC » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:01 am

macdoc wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:51 am
Part of the reason for suggesting a payment for treatment for the rugby players is to act as additional motivation to not put themselves in situations where they're likely to get injured.
Your analogy would only hold up if there was pill to avoid rugby injuries and it was not taken.
Any contact support involves injury.....not wearing protective gear might warrant a co-pay.
Rugby players, even the craziest who put themselves at harm's way, do not potentially carry a virus which puts others in the community at risk, so the community as a whole does not have the same motivation to incentivise them via financial penalties.

But sure, it might be reasonable for players in amateur sports with high injury risks to contribute in some way to their potential medical bills, perhaps via personal insurance (professionals usually have any injuries dealt with by their club under their contracts)
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by JimC » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:45 am

So, I'm going to try a summary here. By all rational calculations, a community facing a dangerous pandemic where an effective vaccine has been developed will gain maximum protection by having the highest proportion of the population vaccinated. For a variety of reasons, ranging from mild anxiety about vaccination to crazed conspiracy theories, a certain proportion of the population is (at least) hesitant about being vaccinated. Solutions to maximise the percentage of the population getting vaccinated, and to reduce transmission before vaccine coverage arrives clearly include:

* the wide variety of lockdowns, mask wearing and social distancing measures that were in fact our only tools prior to vaccine development, but that still remain potential tools in outbreaks

* intensive government measures to make sure that getting vaccinated is easy, practical and available for all segments of the population

* education programs via mass media to inform the community about the benefits (both personal and community) of vaccination

* in the light of the above, special information programs for ethnic or religious groups with particular vaccine hesitancy, driven by community leaders in those groups

* once it is clear that people have had every chance to get vaccinated, particular steps to pressure the remaining refuseniks to get the jab. This can include removing employment opportunities, the ability to travel, to attend sporting or entertainment events, to go to pubs and restaurants etc. Anecdotal evidence suggests that such measures can effectively work on those whose refusal is not tied to a powerful ideologically based stance. A possible extra pressure in recent posts has been the ending of free health care for covid treatment for the wilfully unvaccinated, which I accept is controversial. After all that, one would hope that the remaining refuseniks are a tiny minority of crazies, whose elimination from the human gene pool via covid deaths I would count as a positive.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by rainbow » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:22 am

Rugby players should all be sent to New Zealand.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Svartalf » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:09 am

rainbow wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:22 am
Rugby players should all be sent to New Zealand.
they are meaty, they should be ordained as clergy and be sent to preach in Africa.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by rainbow » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:09 pm

:tup:
Svartalf wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:09 am
rainbow wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:22 am
Rugby players should all be sent to New Zealand.
they are meaty, they should be ordained as clergy and be sent to preach in Africa.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:49 pm

macdoc wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:51 am
Part of the reason for suggesting a payment for treatment for the rugby players is to act as additional motivation to not put themselves in situations where they're likely to get injured.
Your analogy would only hold up if there was pill to avoid rugby injuries and it was not taken.
Any contact support involves injury.....not wearing protective gear might warrant a co-pay.
The prescription to avoid rugby injuries would be to not play rugby. If "any contact support (sic) involves injury" then rugby players are willingly taking a risk that will place an additional burden on the healthcare system by continuing to play the sport. They are also willingly risking the health of other players who they might injure directly, or injure indirectly simply by taking part in a game.

The point is: that in the context of a universal healthcare system that aspires to meet people's immediate and necessary health and care needs, while being free at the point of delivery, attaching conditions to who gets treated is basically arbitrary. Perhaps fat people shouldn't get treatment for lower limb joint pain, and ginger people shouldn't get treatment for boils? Do we really think that unvaccinated people should not receive potentially life-saving treatment if they can't pay for it? Do you really think that?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:00 pm

JimC wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:01 am
macdoc wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:51 am
Part of the reason for suggesting a payment for treatment for the rugby players is to act as additional motivation to not put themselves in situations where they're likely to get injured.
Your analogy would only hold up if there was pill to avoid rugby injuries and it was not taken.
Any contact support involves injury.....not wearing protective gear might warrant a co-pay.
Rugby players, even the craziest who put themselves at harm's way, do not potentially carry a virus which puts others in the community at risk, so the community as a whole does not have the same motivation to incentivise them via financial penalties.

But sure, it might be reasonable for players in amateur sports with high injury risks to contribute in some way to their potential medical bills, perhaps via personal insurance (professionals usually have any injuries dealt with by their club under their contracts)
Rugby players, even the craziest who put themselves in harm's way, do potentially increase the risk of harm or injury to others in the community - i.e. other rugby players, and possibly match officials too.

The question isn't really about rugby players, or formula one drivers, or steeplechase jockies is it though(?) - it's about what conditions are we prepared to place on healthcare treatment in such a way as to exclude certain people from accessing high-quality services that would otherwise meet their immediate and necessary needs. By saying that it is fair, or right, or just to deny the unvaccinated treatment for Covid-19 if they're not willing or able to pay for it themselves are you not also saying that it's OK if some unvaccinated people are left to die without treatment?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by JimC » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:13 pm

No, they get the treatment they need, but maybe they also get a bill at the end...

I do take your argument that universal, free health care is important, and that it should still be available to all in most cases, whether their behaviour contributes to their condition or not. However, the covid situation is different, IMO, in that vaccine refusers put the whole community at risk, and it is reasonable that the community should put some pressure on them to get the jab. As I said in a previous post, many jurisdictions have a range of mandates affecting employment and places one can go as part of such pressure. Singapore clearly feels that paying for covid treatment is a worthwhile additional incentive (or perhaps even punishment). I suspect few other jurisdictions with universal health care will do the same (there is no serious push for it here, for example).
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:29 am

Just restrict the unvaccinated in their movements. Just demand the Covid pass in more places. Work and certain shops. Italy have done this and increased the take up significantly. The hospitality industry may use the pass at two levels; the stricter 2G (vaccinated or acquired immunity) and stay open longer or 3G including negatively tested people. More people (?) but earlier closing. The trouble here it is political involving the cabinet formation. VVD want their CDA buddies in the cabinet and as the vast majority of the unvaccinated are "christians" so restrictions are not being heavily imposed.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Tero » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:00 pm

Good idea. We will take that tip and restrict unvaccinated to shop in Walmart.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Tero » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:36 pm

vaccinations nov 14.jpg
Even though Europe has fewer Trumpsters, have to say we are not doing bad for 12+ group. That unvaccinated is maybe 15% adult Trumpsters still sticking to it and the rest people unwilling to vaccinate their kids.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by laklak » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:56 pm

Treat unvaccinated corona patients, but turf them out if a vaccinated person needs the hospital bed. If systems are overwhelmed, put them outside in tents. Of course that won't happen in the Free State of Florida.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by JimC » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:59 pm

Another twist on the divide between vaccinated and unvaccinated, this time in Austria:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-15/ ... /100620180
The Austrian government has ordered millions of people not fully vaccinated against COVID-19 into lockdown, as the country grapples with a record surge of infections and growing pressure on hospitals.

The move prohibits unvaccinated individuals older than 12 years from leaving their homes, except for essential activities, such as work, grocery shopping, exercise or getting vaccinated.
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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by Sean Hayden » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:13 pm

I'd think the overall benefits of regular exercise destroys the comparison between sport and anti-vaccine attitudes.

Anyway, until you put forward some numbers dealing with actual risks there's nothing to talk about. Or nothing more than when dealing with anyone's particular fears.

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Re: Vaccination: mandated and/or incentivised

Post by JimC » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:22 pm

To me, the critical thing for any community is to raise the number of fully vaccinated people to the absolute maximum possible. That means that vaccination must be free, easily available for all members of society, and that the community needs to know the medical truths, not the conspiracy theories. The main debate is how to motivate the reluctant, and what judicious mixture of the carrot and the stick will be the most effective...
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