Palestine v Israel.

[rainbow]

[Brian Peacock]

At least 95% of Jews support Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

What do you mean by Zionism there - because it means different things for different people? What exactly are you suggesting that 95% of Jews are supporting?

[JimC]

There would certainly many jews who might loosely be described as zionist in that they support the existence if Israel, but who are dismayed with the policies and actions of the current Israeli government...

[Svartalf]

There are reasons why so many Jews dream of >Jerusalem, but definitely are not ready to make their aaliya

[Strontium Dog]

At least 95% of Jews support Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

What do you mean by Zionism there - because it means different things for different people? What exactly are you suggesting that 95% of Jews are supporting?

Zionism has one and only one basic meaning: a belief in the existence of Israel.

[Brian Peacock]

At least 95% of Jews support Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

What do you mean by Zionism there - because it means different things for different people? What exactly are you suggesting that 95% of Jews are supporting?

Zionism has one and only one basic meaning: a belief in the existence of Israel.

One basic meaning, but different people envision different manifestations of Israel don't they? You're being rather vague here, and I suspect that's deliberate. Why are you not prepared to discuss different visions of Zionism, or say which form you're happy to assert 95% of Jewish people support?

For example, do 95% of Jewish people believe in the existence of Israel as an inclusive secular state, as a progressive socialist state, or as an ultra-orthodox, misogynistic, exclusive ethno-state? Do you believe in any of those expressions of Zionism? And if not, what do you imagine when you think about Zionism?

[Strontium Dog]

One basic meaning, but different people envision different manifestations of Israel don't they? You're being rather vague here, and I suspect that's deliberate. Why are you not prepared to discuss different visions of Zionism, or say which form you're happy to assert 95% of Jewish people support?

For example, do 95% of Jewish people believe in the existence of Israel as an inclusive secular state, as a progressive socialist state, or as an ultra-orthodox, misogynistic, exclusive ethno-state? Do you believe in any of those expressions of Zionism? And if not, what do you imagine when you think about Zionism?

Israel is an inclusive, secular state. That's what Israel has been since day one, and that's the only Israel there is, therefore anyone supporting Israel's existence is supporting that.

You're doing that same thing which critics of socialism do, where anyone saying they're a democratic socialist is expected to carry the can for the excesses of the USSR. People should consider whether they really want to be channeling the spirit of Seth.

[Svartalf]

I'm anti zionist insofar as I don't believe Jews have an innate right to take possession of Palestine by whatever means they deem appropriate and replace the previous occupants.

does that make me antisemitic as well?

[pErvinalia]

Indubitably.

[Strontium Dog]

Oh boy, I will never get tired of the argument that it's okay to steal Judea off Jews, rename it Palestine, then declare Jews to be Nazis if they try and take back just a portion of what is rightfully theirs. With the double irony of Americans, Canadians and Australians making these utterance from the stolen lands of genocided natives.

[macdoc]

Canadians are nowhere perfect on indigenous affairs and still are not but they sheltered many from the policy genocide of the US, so careful where you toss genocide accusations.

Both Canada and Australia allowed attempted cultural erasur/forced assimilation by way of asshole xtians - still paying out for that and methodically tho perhaps glacially settling land claims.
I was dismayed Australians voted against the Voice tho could understand and the bigots had an effective No campaign throwing a couple more generations under the bus.

The US approach was far more virulent in its eradication attempts...

Israel is a sovereign and militarily very powerful nation beset/surrounded by enemies, subject to once again growing anti-semitism, internally fractured politics and refusing to accept a two state proposal.
Palestinian frustration is understandable but Hamas attack on Israel set the whole situation back immeasurably ...Israel did not hold back in its response.

Not sure who can broker at least a long term cease fire but my understanding is Israel is intent on dismembering Hamas to shreds.

Send aid, accept refugees and hope the conflict does not spread.

[pErvinalia]

Oh boy, I will never get tired of the argument that it's okay to steal Judea off Jews, rename it Palestine, then declare Jews to be Nazis if they try and take back just a portion of what is rightfully theirs. With the double irony of Americans, Canadians and Australians making these utterance from the stolen lands of genocided natives.

I'm no supporter of how you Brits treated our indigenous, so you can shove that strawman and whataboutism where it fits.

[Brian Peacock]

One basic meaning, but different people envision different manifestations of Israel don't they? You're being rather vague here, and I suspect that's deliberate. Why are you not prepared to discuss different visions of Zionism, or say which form you're happy to assert 95% of Jewish people support?

For example, do 95% of Jewish people believe in the existence of Israel as an inclusive secular state, as a progressive socialist state, or as an ultra-orthodox, misogynistic, exclusive ethno-state? Do you believe in any of those expressions of Zionism? And if not, what do you imagine when you think about Zionism?

Israel is an inclusive, secular state. That's what Israel has been since day one, and that's the only Israel there is, therefore anyone supporting Israel's existence is supporting that.

You're doing that same thing which critics of socialism do, where anyone saying they're a democratic socialist is expected to carry the can for the excesses of the USSR. People should consider whether they really want to be channeling the spirit of Seth.

Hmmm. What I'm doing is asking you questions about what you posted. Whatever else you bring to this is your own affair. I support the existence of Israel as a secure homeland for an historically oppressed minority, but that is not the be-all-and-end-all of my support - nor does such support denude or invalidate any criticism I might have of the Israeli state, its actions and/or intent, either historically or in the present day.

I'd dispute that Israel is an inclusive secular state - although I understand why Jewish people around the world tell themselves that story. Israel was formed on the back of the enclosure of the lands occupied by non-Jewish peoples in Palestine supported by the forced relocation of 80% of that population. There were Zionists from the 1880s-1930s who advocated for a right of residence for Jewish people in Palestine as part of a inclusive state run in partnership with the people whose families had lived there for generations. Unfortunately those voices did not win the argument, not least because the colonial powers in the region (France and Britain) believed they could benefit from encouraging some element of Jewish settler violence that might act as a bulwark against the arab population's mounting political discontent following Sykes-Picot.

[aufbahrung]

Remove the insanity of invisible friends the main issue is over population on all sides. A smaller population would seek compromise. A larger population seeks more land. Notice the peace when nobody was living in the middle east? Might be climate change and endless 70C heatwaves will solve what humans cannot?

[Strontium Dog]

Oh boy, I will never get tired of the argument that it's okay to steal Judea off Jews, rename it Palestine, then declare Jews to be Nazis if they try and take back just a portion of what is rightfully theirs. With the double irony of Americans, Canadians and Australians making these utterance from the stolen lands of genocided natives.

I'm no supporter of how you Brits treated our indigenous, so you can shove that strawman and whataboutism where it fits.

"You Brits". My word. My ancestors were peasants in Ireland and Lithuania while yours were robbing land from aborigines, fella.

You've got no moral authority here. No European Australian does. Just hypocrisy. Give your house back to the aborigines, then you can comment on Israel.