Bothsidesing

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Hermit
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Hermit » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:23 am
Registration is the first undemocratic hurdle that is placed before voters. Imagine having to declare your voting intension. In a civilised country that is between you and the ballot box. Is this to do with primaries?
Who elects the leaders of any particular party in the Netherlands?
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:06 pm

Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:23 am
Registration is the first undemocratic hurdle that is placed before voters. Imagine having to declare your voting intension. In a civilised country that is between you and the ballot box. Is this to do with primaries?
Who elects the leaders of any particular party in the Netherlands?
Depends on the party. There is no fixed system. You dont have to state your voting intension when you register at the town hall.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Hermit » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:04 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:06 pm
Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:23 am
Registration is the first undemocratic hurdle that is placed before voters. Imagine having to declare your voting intension. In a civilised country that is between you and the ballot box. Is this to do with primaries?
Who elects the leaders of any particular party in the Netherlands?
Depends on the party. There is no fixed system. You dont have to state your voting intension when you register at the town hall.
Would I be mistaken if people usually have to be members of the party they elect the leaders of?
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:55 pm

Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:04 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:06 pm
Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:23 am
Registration is the first undemocratic hurdle that is placed before voters. Imagine having to declare your voting intension. In a civilised country that is between you and the ballot box. Is this to do with primaries?
Who elects the leaders of any particular party in the Netherlands?
Depends on the party. There is no fixed system. You dont have to state your voting intension when you register at the town hall.
Would I be mistaken if people usually have to be members of the party they elect the leaders of?
That varies but normally the one who is elected is the one with largest number of party members. D'66 has convoluted district elections which throw up candidates for the national party elections.
Wilders does not have a party in the true sense of the word. It is an association. He does not have leadership elections. He is leader.
Most other parties are the same as D'66 if they are big enough. There are no legal requirements for party leader elections. VVD was a bit like the old British tories. No actual elections but the process of consultations but that changed very quickly.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Hermit » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:18 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:55 pm
Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:04 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:06 pm
Hermit wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:23 am
Registration is the first undemocratic hurdle that is placed before voters. Imagine having to declare your voting intension. In a civilised country that is between you and the ballot box. Is this to do with primaries?
Who elects the leaders of any particular party in the Netherlands?
Depends on the party. There is no fixed system. You dont have to state your voting intension when you register at the town hall.
Would I be mistaken if people usually have to be members of the party they elect the leaders of?
That varies but normally the one who is elected is the one with largest number of party members. D'66 has convoluted district elections which throw up candidates for the national party elections.
Wilders does not have a party in the true sense of the word. It is an association. He does not have leadership elections. He is leader.
Most other parties are the same as D'66 if they are big enough. There are no legal requirements for party leader elections. VVD was a bit like the old British tories. No actual elections but the process of consultations but that changed very quickly.
So, only registered party members can vote for their party's leader?
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by laklak » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 am

You don't have to belong to a political party to register or to vote. Many people register as "Independent" or "No Party Affiliation". There is no requirement to vote for the party you belong to. Nationally there are more independent voters than either Democrats or Republicans.

Florida has now become an "open primary" state, which means you do NOT have to be a member of a political party in order to vote in their primary elections. Primary elections are when a party chooses it's candidate who will stand in the general election. Republicans run against other Republicans in their primary, the winner faces the Democratic candidate in the general elections. Same way for Democrats, and other parties (mostly), they hold primary elections to choose their candidates from their ranks. I am a registered Libertarian because I wanted a say in who the Libertarian candidate would be (not that it ever made any difference), but I'm changing back to Independent because there is no reason to be a member of a political party now that I can vote in the primaries of any party I choose.

I think open primaries are a mistake. Why should a Republican have any say in who the Democrat's candidate is? But it is what it is. The exact mechanism of the Florida open primaries has not been defined, we just passed a state constitutional amendment allowing open primaries this election. I don't know if we'll be able to vote in multiple party primaries, or have to pick just one.
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Hermit » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:28 am

laklak wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 am
You don't have to belong to a political party to register or to vote. Many people register as "Independent" or "No Party Affiliation". There is no requirement to vote for the party you belong to. Nationally there are more independent voters than either Democrats or Republicans.

Florida has now become an "open primary" state, which means you do NOT have to be a member of a political party in order to vote in their primary elections. Primary elections are when a party chooses it's candidate who will stand in the general election. Republicans run against other Republicans in their primary, the winner faces the Democratic candidate in the general elections. Same way for Democrats, and other parties (mostly), they hold primary elections to choose their candidates from their ranks. I am a registered Libertarian because I wanted a say in who the Libertarian candidate would be (not that it ever made any difference), but I'm changing back to Independent because there is no reason to be a member of a political party now that I can vote in the primaries of any party I choose.

I think open primaries are a mistake. Why should a Republican have any say in who the Democrat's candidate is? But it is what it is. The exact mechanism of the Florida open primaries has not been defined, we just passed a state constitutional amendment allowing open primaries this election. I don't know if we'll be able to vote in multiple party primaries, or have to pick just one.
My understanding is that rules about who can vote in the primaries vary from state to state. Yes, I agree with you; Only party members should have a say in who their own party's candidate for the presidency should be.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by laklak » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 am

Yeah it differs state to state. There are closed states, where you must be registered with the party to vote in their primary. Partially open states allow party members and independent voters to vote, but not members of other parties. Fully open lets anyone vote. Then some states make you pick just one primary to vote in, others allow you to vote in multiple ones.

Some you can wear your guns on your hip, some you can't. Some you can smoke weed, some put you in jail. Some have a 70 mph speed limit on freeways, some have 75, some 80, and I think part of Texas has 85. There's state income tax in most, but not in a few. Some have sales taxes, some don't. It's all a bit confusing, even to the locals.
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by JimC » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:50 am

The differences between our states seem minuscule in comparison...
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:16 am

Talk about trying to be democratic.In federal elections every voter should be subject to the same regulations.
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:04 am

Every voter in a state is subject to the laws and regulations of that state. Those laws and regulations are determined by legislators and officials that hold their positions at the public's pleasure. That's democratic. However, the influence of money in politics tends to undermine those kinds of systems along with the values of political aspirants. Hasn't it always been so?
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:06 pm

Scot doesn't get federalism, and never will. Despite being subject to a form of it via the EU.
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:19 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:04 am
Every voter in a state is subject to the laws and regulations of that state. Those laws and regulations are determined by legislators and officials that hold their positions at the public's pleasure. That's democratic. However, the influence of money in politics tends to undermine those kinds of systems along with the values of political aspirants. Hasn't it always been so?
Not when it comes to federal elections. Every voter should have to follow the exact same rules which is the case in the EU. There should be no difference between states and every vote should count. That is democratic. Money has no influence in our elections or EU elections.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:54 pm

On your last point:

On your other point, I totally agree, in principle - but that's something for the American people to devise, decide, and implement.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Bothsidesing

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:20 pm

But that is the problem. Do they want change?
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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