The state of the UK

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am

The idea that any white person in the UK can claim Gaele, Gual, Dane, Angles, Celt or Saxon etc heritage in any meaningful way -- that we aren't a bastard nation, and always have been -- is ridiculous. And yet some people do. I find it interesting that nobody ever seems to claim Roman heritage in the same way.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:03 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am
The idea that any white person in the UK can claim Gaele, Gual, Dane, Angles, Celt or Saxon etc heritage in any meaningful way -- that we aren't a bastard nation, and always have been -- is ridiculous. And yet some people do. I find it interesting that nobody ever seems to claim Roman heritage in the same way.
I would agree with you but due to geographic anomalies There were many pockets of Vikings along the west Irish coast and the Gaels were no match for them. The ruling families came from Viking stock. When the Spanish Armada was forced to sail around the British Isles many ships crashed on the west coast of Ireland and even today the Spanish genes are clearly visible. People did not travel much and very few left their townland.
The Scots were invited by the English to come and take charge of Ireland but only really settled in what is now today Northern Island. The Scots came mostly from the west of Scotland and were non Catholic non Gaelic speakers. The Church of Ireland (protestant) is still strong in certain areas even as far south west as Kerry.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Hermit » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:07 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am
The idea that any white person in the UK can claim Gaele, Gual, Dane, Angles, Celt or Saxon etc heritage in any meaningful way -- that we aren't a bastard nation, and always have been -- is ridiculous. And yet some people do. I find it interesting that nobody ever seems to claim Roman heritage in the same way.
Perhaps you might want to take cognisance of what I did claim. It was that the Irish and the Scottish populations are more closely related to each other than with any other population.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:08 pm

Related?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:17 pm

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Hermit » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:33 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:08 pm
Related?
Genetically and culturally.
The Origin of the Irish and Scottish Gaels as revealed by their DNA

The origin of the Gaels has remained a mystery until the advent of modern commercial ancestral DNA testing. Commercial ancestral Y-DNA testing has revealed that 60% of Irish males will have a pre-Viking Gaelic origin, and that almost all of those will have earlier detectable links with Scotland (the Y-DNA test only explores the paternal line). But Irish Gaels don’t typically match just any Scots, they match the Gaelic speaking Scots whose genetic signature dominates Western Scotland.

Probably not a surprise as the Irish and Scottish Gaels share common language (Gaelic), common surnames (typically denoted by Mac’ or Mc’), sports (Irish Hurling, Scottish Shinty) and national drink ‘Irish Whiskey’ or ‘Scotch Whisky.’
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:39 pm

No they not. No Gaels ever came into the Southern Uplands or the Low Lands. The Irish and Scottish Gaels are only related vaguely. The rest of the Scottish Population has no relationship with the Gaels. The two languages are from one root and a different one to the Welsh, Cornwall and Brittany. Irish Gaelic speakers have great difficulty understanding Scottish Gaelic and vice a versa. You obviously have never played shinty or hurling. You might as well throw in ice hockey or 'mali' (a cross between golf and hockey played here) as well in the comparison. I played both at school. You dont say Irish Whiskey or Scotch Whisky. Ireland you say the name when ordering ie "a Jamieson" and in Scotland it has very many names including a dram or a half as in "a pint and a half" (pint of beer and a whisky chaser).
Your cultural knowledge is very lacking. The Irish never use the 'Mac' in names only 'Mc'. The 'O' is not Gaelic as in O'Riley. It is an Irish modernism which ofcourse does not appear in Scotland. Looking for "spijkers in laag water" will always provide some vague connections. How about kilts? A Victorian invention including the Irish one which is never worn by the population in Ireland.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Hermit » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 pm

Image
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:40 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:33 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:08 pm
Related?
Genetically and culturally.
The Origin of the Irish and Scottish Gaels as revealed by their DNA

The origin of the Gaels has remained a mystery until the advent of modern commercial ancestral DNA testing. Commercial ancestral Y-DNA testing has revealed that 60% of Irish males will have a pre-Viking Gaelic origin, and that almost all of those will have earlier detectable links with Scotland (the Y-DNA test only explores the paternal line). But Irish Gaels don’t typically match just any Scots, they match the Gaelic speaking Scots whose genetic signature dominates Western Scotland.

Probably not a surprise as the Irish and Scottish Gaels share common language (Gaelic), common surnames (typically denoted by Mac’ or Mc’), sports (Irish Hurling, Scottish Shinty) and national drink ‘Irish Whiskey’ or ‘Scotch Whisky.’
The histories of population dynamics are interesting, but I don't know if there is anything more meaningful to draw from noting those histories other than to say it's, erm, interesting. As to the relation or relationship between the populations of Scotland and Ireland, one could draw similar conclusions by, say, comparing the general population of Northern England and Scotland and noting that they have more in common with each other culturally and historical than they do with the populations of the South West of England. One might also say that there's cultural and historical differences between the people of North and South London, or the East and West Midlands, but I feel that claims that the appearance of those differences represent bounded or culturally distinct populations are somewhat (if not often) over-played.

My point was that in the UK, while there are distinct region flavours (most notably expressed in things like regional dialects, place names and cuisine etc), in cultural terms there's not much disparity across the nation as a whole. I'd suggest that any apparent differences are relatively minor, and in fact that the cultural differences between the UK and mainland Europe are not as distinct or significant as some people might make out from either side of the channel. Indeed, I'd also suggest that apparent difference between the antipodes and the UK are relatively insignificant in cultural terms for exactly the same kinds of historical reasons that make claims to the distinctiveness of Scots, Irish, Welsh, or English populations pretty negligible for all practical purposes. To my mind distinctions between populations on class grounds are far more significant culturally and historically than those touted on regional grounds - and in this regard I think drawing genetics into the discussion is a bit of a red herring..
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Hermit » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:40 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:33 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:08 pm
Related?
Genetically and culturally.
The Origin of the Irish and Scottish Gaels as revealed by their DNA

The origin of the Gaels has remained a mystery until the advent of modern commercial ancestral DNA testing. Commercial ancestral Y-DNA testing has revealed that 60% of Irish males will have a pre-Viking Gaelic origin, and that almost all of those will have earlier detectable links with Scotland (the Y-DNA test only explores the paternal line). But Irish Gaels don’t typically match just any Scots, they match the Gaelic speaking Scots whose genetic signature dominates Western Scotland.

Probably not a surprise as the Irish and Scottish Gaels share common language (Gaelic), common surnames (typically denoted by Mac’ or Mc’), sports (Irish Hurling, Scottish Shinty) and national drink ‘Irish Whiskey’ or ‘Scotch Whisky.’
The histories of population dynamics are interesting, but I don't know if there is anything more meaningful to draw from noting those histories other than to say it's, erm, interesting. As to the relation or relationship between the populations of Scotland and Ireland, one could draw similar conclusions by, say, comparing the general population of Northern England and Scotland and noting that they have more in common with each other culturally and historical than they do with the populations of the South West of England. One might also say that there's cultural and historical differences between the people of North and South London, or the East and West Midlands, but I feel that claims that the appearance of those differences represent bounded or culturally distinct populations are somewhat (if not often) over-played.

My point was that in the UK, while there are distinct region flavours (most notably expressed in things like regional dialects, place names and cuisine etc), in cultural terms there's not much disparity across the nation as a whole. I'd suggest that any apparent differences are relatively minor, and in fact that the cultural differences between the UK and mainland Europe are not as distinct or significant as some people might make out from either side of the channel. Indeed, I'd also suggest that apparent difference between the antipodes and the UK are relatively insignificant in cultural terms for exactly the same kinds of historical reasons that make claims to the distinctiveness of Scots, Irish, Welsh, or English populations pretty negligible for all practical purposes. To my mind distinctions between populations on class grounds are far more significant culturally and historically than those touted on regional grounds - and in this regard I think drawing genetics into the discussion is a bit of a red herring..
All very good points. I mean that, but while I basically agree with your entire post - and keeping your points in mind - I still think to say the Irish and the Scottish populations are more closely related to each other than with any other population is fair comment. Insignificant, possibly close to the point of meaninglessness, yes, but still fair comment.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:16 pm

Oz is more of a bastard nation than the UK, so there! :Erasb:
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:25 pm

Yeah, I've heard that you're all a bunch of bastids! :biggrin:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:27 pm

We sure iz!
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Svartalf » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:57 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:55 am
Of course you are the expert Hermit and like plenty of experts talk shite. The west coast is full of Viking stock. The Gaels never reached SW Scotland but never mind you found a map. Well done.
Uh, what? SW Scotland is precisely the location of the Gael kingdom of Dal Riada...
That, and for obvious reasons, the Norse stock stuck to the East and North sides... mingled actively in Hebridean population too, but eventually assimilated into Gaelic culture rather than making them a Norse kingdom. Unlike the Orkneys which for a long time were ruled by a jarl and stayed Norse enough to have their own saga.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Svartalf » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:01 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am
The idea that any white person in the UK can claim Gaele, Gual, Dane, Angles, Celt or Saxon etc heritage in any meaningful way -- that we aren't a bastard nation, and always have been -- is ridiculous. And yet some people do. I find it interesting that nobody ever seems to claim Roman heritage in the same way.
You've never heard Southern French law history experts talk... For centuries, Southern French provinces resisted the imposition of royal laws, on ground that THEIR legal tradition was clearly written and descended directly from Roman law, whereas Northern rules were based on word of mouth customs of dubious reliability.
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