George Floyd protests

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L'Emmerdeur
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:32 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:57 am
I've been looking for this thread. I meant to say how right I think your analysis is.

--//--
but fails when it comes to imagining that black and hispanic cops may feel that they should not be seen to show lenience to blacks and hispanics--that they may believe that it's necessary to prove that they're at least as tough on blacks and hispanics as white cops are, otherwise they aren't 'good cops.'
On this point though, I thought that blacks policing blacks, whites policing whites etc, because of demographics, was a good explanation for why blacks are as likely to be shot by a black cop as a white one*. It is certainly simpler than the quoted bit. It was mentioned in some research I posted elsewhere on the boards when this subject came up.

*edited to say as likely, rather than more likely.
Perhaps. Without data it's all on the level of Harris imagining a condition and then proceeding with analysis on the basis of that imagined condition.

I don't know that there is a widespread policy of assigning police to areas based on the color of their skin. It sounds like a dubious approach to me. I'd look at the research you posted elsewhere, but I don't recall seeing it. I admit I don't follow every thread here.

Regardless, I readily acknowledge that my conjecture regarding how the numbers might reflect an ambient level of racism in police forces has just as much validity as Harris's about blacks having a 'culture of resisting arrest,' that is, nil.

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:34 am

laklak wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:17 pm
A mate of mine (libertarian) was asked by another mate (lefty) why the "alt-right" isn't out there protecting the protesters from tyrannical gummint agents. He said "because the weapons we'd use are the same ones they want to ban". He's right, you know. Can't have it both ways.
So they'd prefer a tyrannical government to not having an AR-15?
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by laklak » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:53 am

Maybe, can't speak for him. I know I'm not going to get myself killed (which is exactly what is going to happen to you when you open up on the Feds) over people who can't stand either my politics or me.
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by Hermit » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:55 am

laklak wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:15 am
Well, it is 3000 miles away from me, so a bit difficult to get involved without a major effort. Plus, as I've been told repeatedly, my rifles won't stop an M1 Tank or a Hellfire missile. If and when it come time to take up arms it will be because there is absolutely no other option, including getting the fuck out of Dodge for good. It means, basically, civil war. I've never seen a nice civil war, and I'd rather avoid that if possible. Opening fire on Federales never turns out well, but there is a point at which it could happen. Swaziland beckons. So no, I'm not going to commit suicide by engaging in armed insurrection over some dead guy I never met, or a bunch of idiots who want to establish an anarchists collective in Portlandia. I got over that sort of nonsense back in the 70s.
Yes, I agree, prospects of actually doing something are limited and the likelihood of making much of a difference is almost non-existent. Extinction Rebellion is just about spent. It will disappear leaving as little trace as the Occupy movement before it. And who even remembers the demonstrations and riots in Europe between 1968 and 1972?

Image

Still, doing something sometimes does make a difference. The civil rights marches certainly did, and I think the anti-war protests contributed to the withdrawal from the Vietnam war. You won't be noticed at all on your own, nor will I, but a few thousand or a few hundred thousand yous and Is will - certainly if enough of us do turn up at the voting booths and cast our vote for the lesser of two evils.

Yes, there is a difference between the Republican and the Democrat Party in the US, Tory and Labour in the UK, L/NP Coalition and Labor in Australia, and so on. It is not a great difference, but it is enough to bother making a choice between the two.

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(In this case it means any Democrat but Trump. Voting for a Libertarian, a Greens or any other candidate is a vote thrown away.)
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:58 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:28 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:36 pm
...

There is much reliance on statistics that show white suspects are killed by police proportionally more often than black suspects are. He does speculate briefly on why that might be the case, but takes it as read and uses it as a solid point on the side of 'hey, it's pretty much all in their heads', his precise wording is 'mass hysteria.' Good ol' Sam. God bless him.
I think you pretty much nailed why Harris' remarks are, shall we say, unsettling. I've selected the bit above because I found this the most problematic part of what he said. Even being charitable I think it's difficult not to take this any other way than him saying, "Data seems to show racism isn't a factor in policing because police officers kill proportionately more unarmed white people than black people." Elsewhere he's said that people who have done nothing wrong and/or have been misidentified or unreliably targetted by law enforcement are probably more likely to be annoyed, angry and non-compliant, but when that's laid against statements which appear to highlight that black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime - particularly violent crime against other black people - then it feels as if he is encouraging us to simply take these facts in isolation and without any further social, economic, judicial etc context.
It's a reasonable inference that 'people who have done nothing wrong and/or have been misidentified or unreliably targetted by law enforcement are probably more likely to be annoyed'. When it's part of your everyday life, you're likely to be annoyed by any interaction with the police. That's a given.

Then we listen to black mothers describing how they teach their children to be very careful in their interactions with police. Perhaps more significant is the evidence of the world around them showing that the police can end you with impunity if you mess with them. I think that facet of the situation is at least as significant as being annoyed by undue attention from police. In my opinion any argument built on 'annoyance at police' by black people or their supposed 'culture of resisting arrest' is, absent empirical evidence in support, of minimal worth. Harris knows this, so why is he even trotting it out?
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:28 pm
It's also easily taken to imply that black people are just more dangerous and criminally minded as a group. And yet, the data seems reliable. Which leaves me thinking that the matter of racism in law enforcement is far more complex than any particular data-point might suggest.
Egad, after listening to that last one I've had more than my fill of Dr Harris this week month. For some reason my initial reaction to him (we're talking years and years ago) was negative. I kept listening though, because he does have interesting things to say. Over the years I've found that I disagree with much more from him than I agree with, and my tolerance for his schtick has not grown.

I agree he does sidle right up to the idea that 'basically, it's their own fault', but he doesn't do it via sound argument.

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:19 am

Hermit wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:55 am
Extinction Rebellion is just about spent. It will disappear leaving as little trace as the Occupy movement before it.
It is unavoidably quiescent now, at a time where mass street protests are very unwise. But I don't see any reason why it can't leap back into life when marches are again possible...
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:01 am

I expect it will kick up again once the virus is under control (if it's ever under control).
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:27 am

...deleted, felt it was out of place...
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by Hermit » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:22 am

JimC wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:19 am
Hermit wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:55 am
Extinction Rebellion is just about spent. It will disappear leaving as little trace as the Occupy movement before it.
It is unavoidably quiescent now, at a time where mass street protests are very unwise. But I don't see any reason why it can't leap back into life when marches are again possible...
My confidence of Extinction Rebellion achieving significant and lasting results is leavened by the effects of previous movements advocating change. Please do not read any sort of opposition to ER, or any of its predecessors, into my view.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by laklak » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:49 pm

Seattle police chief says KMAG YOYO (Kiss my ass goodbye, you're on your own). The ordinance bans the use of less lethal weapons like pepper spray and tear gas in crowd control.

https://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2020/07/ ... %EF%BB%BF/
...With this Council ordinance, we hear loudly and clearly that the use of these less-lethal tools by SPD officers to disperse crowds that have turned violent have been completely banned by City Council.

Under these circumstances, as created by Council, we cannot manage demonstrations as we have in the past. If I am not allowed to lawfully equip officers with the tools they have been trained to use to protect the community and themselves, it would be reckless to have them confront this level of violence under the current legal restrictions imposed by Council.
So now we'll see, eh? Will we have a brave, new world without those fascist piggy cops, or will it be a fucking free-for-all zoo? I'm leaning towards the zoo, but then I'm a cynical bastard.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by laklak » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:38 pm

Watching shit unfold in Louisville. Two heavily armed, ideologically opposed militia groups are facing off, one black and one white.

What could possibly go wrong?
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by Tero » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:56 pm

The Insurrection Act has been invoked throughout American history. In the 19th century, it was invoked during conflicts with Native Americans. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it was invoked during labor conflicts. Later in the 20th century, it was used to enforce federally mandated desegregation,[10] with Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy invoking the Act in opposition to the affected states' political leaders to enforce court-ordered desegregation.[11] More recently, governors have requested and received support most recently following looting in the aftermath of Hurricane Hugo in 1989 and during the 1992 Los Angeles riots.[12]

In 2006, the George W. Bush administration considered intervening in the state of Louisiana's response to Hurricane Katrina despite the refusal from Louisiana's governor, but this was inconsistent with past precedent, politically difficult, and potentially unconstitutional.
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by laklak » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:30 pm

Yeah, the Feds have been sending in troops since the Whiskey Rebellion in 1791. It's nothing new. Of course their biggest intervention was the War of Yankee Aggression.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by Tero » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:45 pm

seattle moms.jpg
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Re: George Floyd protests

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:57 pm

If the armed civil conflict that the boogaloo bozos are panting for were imminent, you'd think that when the NFAC (black militia "Not Fucking Around Coalition') met up with a 3 percenter militia, things would have gone differently than getting 'within a few dozen yards of each of other, but avoid[ing] violence' (source).

Should have read 'mostly avoided violence' -- the NFAC didn't exactly cover themselves in glory. 'A woman accidentally injured 3 members of her armed militia in a shooting at a Breonna Taylor protest in Louisville'

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