The Coronavirus Thread

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Scot Dutchy
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:11 am

The Burgermeesters of Rotterdam and Amsterdam are introducing the mandatory wearing of face masks in certain busy shopping areas but not because of health reasons but as a behavioural influencer. This is unconstitutional and any challenge in the Supreme Court will have certain success.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:18 am

:tea:
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Hermit » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:21 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:47 am
We were hoping that we'd had the peak a few days ago, but no... :(
At 17 deaths per million Victoria is faring worst among Australian states and territories, but if it were placed on the list of nations it would rank 109th out of 215. To get a sense of proportion, the UK is in third place at 677/million and the US has just re-entered the top ten with 469. Chile (490 in 9th), Brazil (430 in 12th) and Mexico (352 in 15th) are racing up the ladder. Australia is too, but from a low base (4 deaths/million in about 156th place to 7 in 131st in five weeks).
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Hermit » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:24 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:49 am
RIVM only issues weekly data now...
Daily, actually. I provided links to the effect here.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:05 am
So is the death ratio for the NL better or worse than the UK and/or is the NL data more or less data political as a result, and have the Dutch gov made better or worse political decisions when considered against your deaths per head of population? You don't seem to want to talk about this Scott - other than saying "Britain bad" that is. We could compare the Dutch experience to the German if you prefer: Has the NL faired better or worse than the Germans?
The numbers you are talking about are so low comparison is very difficult. The demographics are quite different also comparison of population size always favour the larger ones. We are small highly densely populated one but one with extremely well organised and operated infrastructure which allows easy access for travellers and visitors. Lockdown was never compulsory here. We were not as loose as Sweden but no where near as strict as some European countries.
Also another factor is the Dutch attitude to authority. One that is totally contrary to that of say the Germans or British. As in wearing face masks there must be logical evidence that they work but there is none according to the RIVM. The opinion is also divided by the government's advisors. On the one side the pure scientists who say there is no evidence from past studies and on the other the behavioural scientists who say that masks do affect peoples behaviour to each other; people are more likely to keep social distancing when wearing one. So when you take in the numbers involved can you impose this 'just in case' scenario on the population? The government says no and I agree. Why is it not compulsory to wear them in Winter time when there are even more cases of flu than there are now of Covid.
Another interesting fact; it has been calculated that it would require 75,000 people to stop one person get infected if they were even effective at restricting the spread of the virus as claimed.
What I wonder is why people in other countries accept this dehumanisation process when there is no evidence that it works?
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:46 am

laklak wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:58 pm
Nobody sacrifices a lamb any more. Yaweh is probably hangry.

I feed my Ganesh incense every day and I don't have the 'Rona. That's proof right there, y'all.
I bought a crystal Ganesha when I was in India, and put it in the reception area of our offices. My fortunes improved, so you're spot on there, Lackey.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:23 am

Another little thought about the lunacy of wearing masks. After all the effort of freeing muslim women of their dehumanising veils certain countries are enforcing the same on their whole population when there is clearly no scientific reason to do so. Makes one have good scratch behind the ear. (of course a Dutch saying)
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by JimC » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:25 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:23 am
Another little thought about the lunacy of wearing masks. After all the effort of freeing muslim women of their dehumanising veils certain countries are enforcing the same on their whole population when there is clearly no scientific reason to do so. Makes one have good scratch behind the ear. (of course a Dutch saying)
The big difference is that coronavirus masks show the eyes, which are a fairly critical part of human communication...
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:26 am

rainbow wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:03 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 pm
The Dutch government said today that masks have no effect and that wearing them has only behavioural effect. So a national rule to impose mandatory wearing will not be imposed.
Please send a link. I can read Nederlandse.
You never done send the link, Scottie.

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:36 am

rainbow wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:26 am
rainbow wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:03 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 pm
The Dutch government said today that masks have no effect and that wearing them has only behavioural effect. So a national rule to impose mandatory wearing will not be imposed.
Please send a link. I can read Nederlandse.
You never done send the link, Scottie.

Wuz you telling a porkie?
Rainbow lookup https://www.volkskrant.nl/#voorpagina and read the many articles about it.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:05 am
So is the death ratio for the NL better or worse than the UK and/or is the NL data more or less data political as a result, and have the Dutch gov made better or worse political decisions when considered against your deaths per head of population? You don't seem to want to talk about this Scott - other than saying "Britain bad" that is. We could compare the Dutch experience to the German if you prefer: Has the NL faired better or worse than the Germans?
The numbers you are talking about are so low comparison is very difficult.
The numbers I provided came from Eurostat. 1 death in 1000 people compared to 1 death in 2000 is statistically significant so I don't think the idea that the numbers are low is applicable here - that's a qualitative judgement not a quantitative assessment.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
The demographics are quite different also comparison of population size always favour the larger ones.
So you feel that the ratios I provided reflect the NL in an unfavourable light? This is strikes at the point I was making - you fundamentally misunderstand the numbers, and in so doing expose your argument as just a confirmation of your opinion rather than an assessment based in what's actually happening on the ground. I don't say this to play a 'gotcha' here. I'm actually arguing in good faith and trying to help you acknowledge that your opinion cannot be a justification in and by itself.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
We are small highly densely populated one but one with extremely well organised and operated infrastructure which allows easy access for travellers and visitors. Lockdown was never compulsory here. We were not as loose as Sweden but no where near as strict as some European countries. Also another factor is the Dutch attitude to authority. One that is totally contrary to that of say the Germans or British.
Sure, demographics, population density, and what we might call national character are all relevant factors in understanding the impact of the pandemic (as they are in every region, nation, and locality), as are the political decisions taken by our elected representatives along with how those policy decisions are implemented. However, surely those practical, political decisions should account for as many relevant factors as possible rather than citing them as a kind of excuse for doing a poor job?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
As in wearing face masks there must be logical evidence that they work but there is none according to the RIVM. The opinion is also divided by the government's advisors. On the one side the pure scientists who say there is no evidence from past studies and on the other the behavioural scientists who say that masks do affect peoples behaviour to each other; people are more likely to keep social distancing when wearing one. So when you take in the numbers involved can you impose this 'just in case' scenario on the population? The government says no and I agree. Why is it not compulsory to wear them in Winter time when there are even more cases of flu than there are now of Covid.
We've talked about this often. There's plenty of evidence for the efficacy of hand-washing and masks to reduce the risk transmitting infections in a clinical setting, but to say that such things cannot be shown to work in a non-clinical setting is too broad a statement to be taken at face value. For example, surgeons wear masks to prevent transmission to the patient - health workers on infectious disease wards wear them to protect themselves. There are strict protocols in place in each setting. In the non-clinical settings of wider society things are not so clear cut, not so controlled or controllable, but if information on appropriate use is communicated clearly and effectively there is no reason why masks in public places, along with things like public hand sanitising stations, cannot reduce the risk of transmission. In other words, to say that masks cannot or do not 'work' in the public space is a contextless declaration that is not founded in evidence. As many of us have pointed out, this is a numbers game - measures to reduce the risk of transmission can and do add up over time and thus can have a significant impact on the overall number of cases in the long-term, and consequently on the numbers of deaths.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
Another interesting fact; it has been calculated that it would require 75,000 people to stop one person get infected if they were even effective at restricting the spread of the virus as claimed.
Got a link for that?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:52 am
What I wonder is why people in other countries accept this dehumanisation process when there is no evidence that it works?
I think that this strikes at your real objection to masks - you just don't think people should cover their faces in this way. I don't think you really believe it makes people, or renders them, less human, but I accept and agree that widespread public mask wearing - particularly if sustained over a period - is a fundamental change in how we see each other and relate to each other socially. The ethical question then is whether this is a price worth paying individually for potentially reducing the risk of infection to others, and with it possibly of saving the lives of other people? That's a question which asks if doing something we're personally uncomfortable with for the benefit of others is a good, right, or proper thing to do in this case, or not. I guess the answer to that depends, to some extent, on whether we think somebody else should, would, or could do the same thing for us.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by NineBerry » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:40 am

NL has done worse than Germany. A big part of that will probably be because of the higher population density in the NL. (Also probably the reason for Belgium being hit so badly). But some part will probably also be based on the NL taking measures a little later and a little softer.

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:36 am
rainbow wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:26 am
rainbow wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:03 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 pm
The Dutch government said today that masks have no effect and that wearing them has only behavioural effect. So a national rule to impose mandatory wearing will not be imposed.
Please send a link. I can read Nederlandse.
You never done send the link, Scottie.

Wuz you telling a porkie?
Rainbow lookup https://www.volkskrant.nl/#voorpagina and read the many articles about it.
:nono: Not good enough. I want you to point to the official statement from the Dutch Government where they state clearly "that masks have no effect"

:read: OK? :read:
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by NineBerry » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:56 am

Wearing masks to protect others is not dehumanizing in any way. As long as I can remember, when going to the dentist, the dentist and their assistants have always been wearing face masks. I never felt that would dehumanize them. Also, you only have to wear the mask when coming in close contact with other people (public transfer, shopping, crowded narrow streets). You can go to a park and if there is enough space, you won't have to wear a mask and you will see the faces of other people.

The comparison between masks and burkhas is totally off because:
1. The need to wear masks is limited to a very limited set of circumstances
2. The reasoning for wearing masks is a matter of safety and not of misogyny

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by NineBerry » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:59 am

Numbers in Germany rising and rising. Nearly 900 new cases yesterday. Most concerning fact: It's not individual huge outbreaks, but it's all over the place.

Among the 400 communal disticts in Germany, three weeks ago, there were more than 150 without a single case over a 7 day period. Now, this number is down to less than 50.

I was at a doctor's appointment this morning. I biked past groups and groups of young people standing in front of schools in huge groups, no one wearing masks, no one keeping their distance... :x

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