The Coronavirus Thread

[Sean Hayden]

It will be really good if you guys can pull off keeping the numbers down from here. It will be a nice example of what we might have done.

[JimC]

It will need a concerted effort from everyone, motivated by a certain amount of healthy fear...

[Hermit]

Victoria went back to high infection numbers (671 in a day).

How would you know? All governments feed you figures - too high or too low, I can't actually say either way - to suit themselves. All governments, that is, except for the Dutch government, and that government is in the Netherlands, not Victoria.

Man, I hope the new measures are going to get this disaster under control and that you and yours won't catch that lurgie.

[pErvinalia]

In this situation, being a happy little sheeple serves the greater good...

Serves the Illuminati, more like!

[rainbow]

Did you miss this post?
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 2#p1873412

There is a huge difference between your statement:

The Dutch government said today that masks have no effect

And

Volgens het rijksinstituut ontbreekt eenduidig wetenschappelijk bewijs dat het dragen van een mondkapje zinvol is.

The fact that there is no clear scientific evidence that they are effective doesn't equate to them being completely ineffective.

...so I'm still waiting for the quote where they say this, or you're lying.

Do I make myself perfectly clear?

You do know what the word 'zinvol' means?

Yes. In this context it means "effective"

If they are ineffective what does that equate to?

My translation above is loose but correct:"...there is no clear scientific evidence that they are effective"

I've pointed out that this doesn't equate to "they are ineffective".

Now I don't think that your 'rijksinstituut' expressed themselves very well because people like yourself seem to be unable to understand the difference.
Possibly a result of the general dumbing down of the Netherlands population, which you admit can't cope with the idea that they must also wash their hands, and social distance.

[rainbow]

Applying this statement: "...there is no clear scientific evidence that they are effective"

Could equally apply to vaccines. ... or handwashing, or social distancing.

There will not be any clear scientific evidence that vaccines are effective until they have actually exposed volunteers to threshold doses of Covid-19, in a double-blind study.

No scientific body would do this in respect of social distancing, mask wearing, or washing hands. What they can do is find correlations between mask wearing and the transmission of the virus. There is clear evidence of such correlations, but strictly that doesn't mean that a correlation is not ambiguous.
...especially when one is dealing with different types of masks in different situations.
There is no clear scientific evidence that they are ineffective.

That is all your dear leaders in Holland are telling you:

It is important to ensure that professional face masks are available for healthcare workers in sufficient quantities. The healthcare sector is where the medical face masks are needed most. They are mainly used while caring for COVID-19 patients. The face masks ensure that the healthcare workers will not get infected.

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronaviru ... and-gloves

[Scot Dutchy]

FFS rainbow just admit you are wrong. I did not lie
Not effective = ineffective. Or are having problems with English because you certainly have with Dutch. RIVM says they are ineffective which is just another way of saying they dont work. You are trying the old switch game. Where did I claim that vaccines and distancing does not work? Stop muddying the waters. That last reference to MEDICAL masks which here are not available to the general public. The discussion concerns non medical masks which range fro almost medical quality to old rags.

Hermit the RIVM always adds a qualifier to their data; "of the cases tested". We are no different to anyone else but I would say there is no political influence exerted but maybe economic (the use of masks on public transport does have a whiff of something). There is nothing to be gained for any party. The Tweede Kamer has up till now been united on the approach. The same as everywhere else the more you test the more you find.

[pErvinalia]

Or are having problems with English...

Physician, heal thyself!

[Tero]

Antibodies explained:

Your Coronavirus Antibodies Are Disappearing. Should You Care?

"We’re learning a lot about how antibodies change over time,” said Dr. Fiona Havers, a medical epidemiologist who has led such surveys for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

If the narrative on immunity to the coronavirus has seemed to shift constantly, it’s in part because the virus was a stranger to scientists. But it’s increasingly clear that this virus behaves much like any other.

This is how immunity to viruses generally works: The initial encounter with a pathogen — typically in childhood — surprises the body. The resulting illness can be mild or severe, depending on the dose of the virus and the child’s health, access to health care and genetics.

A mild illness may trigger production of only a few antibodies, and a severe one many more. The vast majority of people who become infected with the coronavirus have few to no symptoms, many experts believe, and those people may produce a milder immune response.

But even a minor infection is often enough to teach the body to recognize the intruder.

After the battle ends, balloon-like cells that live in the bone marrow steadily pump out a small number of specialized assassins. The next time — and every time after that — that the body comes across the virus, those cells can mass-produce antibodies within hours.

The mnemonic response grows stronger with every encounter. It’s one of the great miracles of the human body.

“Whatever your level is today, if you get infected, your antibody titers are going to go way up,” said Dr. Michael Mina, an immunologist at Harvard University, referring to the levels of antibodies in the blood. “The virus will never even have a chance the second time around.”

A single drop of blood contains billions of antibodies, all lying in wait for their specific targets. Sometimes, as may be the case for antibodies to the coronavirus, there are too few to get a positive signal on a test — but that does not mean the person tested has no immunity to the virus.

“Even if their antibodies wane below the limits of detection of our instruments, it doesn’t mean their ‘memory’ is gone,” Dr. Mina said.

A small number of people may not produce any antibodies to the coronavirus. But even in that unlikely event, they will have so-called cellular immunity, which includes T cells that learn to identify and destroy the virus. Virtually everyone infected with the coronavirus seems to develop T-cell responses, according to several recent studies.

“This means that even if the antibody titer is low, those people who are previously infected may have a good enough T-cell response that can provide protection,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University.

T cells are harder to detect and to study, however, so when it comes to immunity, antibodies have received all of the attention. The coronavirus carries several antigens — proteins or pieces of a protein — that can provoke the body into producing antibodies.

The most powerful antibodies recognize a piece of the coronavirus’s spike protein, the receptor binding domain, or R.B.D. That is the part of the virus that docks onto human cells. Antibodies that recognize the R.B.D. can neutralize the virus and prevent infection.

But the Roche and Abbott tests that are now widely available — and several others authorized by the Food and Drug Administration — instead look for antibodies to a protein called the nucleocapsid, or N, that is bound up with the virus’s genetic material.

Some scientists were stunned to hear of this choice.

“God, I did not realize that — that’s crazy,” said Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at Columbia University in New York. “It’s kind of puzzling to design a test that’s not looking for what’s thought to be the major antigen.”

The N protein is plentiful in the blood, and testing for antibodies to it produces a swifter, brighter signal than testing for antibodies to the spike protein. Because antibody tests are used to detect past infection, however, manufacturers are not required to prove that the antibodies their tests seek are those that actually confer protection against the virus.

Officials at the Food and Drug Administration did not respond to requests for comment on whether the two tests target the appropriate antibodies.

There’s another wrinkle to the story. Some reports now suggest that antibodies to the viral nucleocapsid may decline faster than those to R.B.D. or to the entire spike — the really effective ones.

“The majority of people are getting tested for anti-N antibody, which does tend to wane more rapidly — and so, you know, it may be not the most suitable test for looking at neutralizing capacity,” Dr. Iwasaki said.

n the United States, millions of people have taken the Roche and Abbott tests. LabCorp alone has performed more than two million antibody tests made by the two manufacturers.

Quest relies on tests made by Abbott, Ortho Clinical and Euroimmun. Quest declined to reveal what proportion of the 2.7 million tests it has deployed so far were made by Abbott.

Dr. Jonathan Berz, a physician in Boston, tested positive for the virus in early April but felt fine, apart from a sore throat. His wife was sicker, and despite several negative diagnostic tests, she remained ill for weeks.

“Initially, we felt as a family that, ‘Oh wow, we got sick, unfortunately,’” Dr. Berz said. “‘But the good side of that is that we’re going to have immunity.’”

In early June, the couple and their two children took Abbott antibody tests processed by Quest. All four turned up negative. Even though Dr. Berz knew that immunity is complex and that T cells also play a role, he was disappointed.

As a doctor in a Covid-19 clinic, he had always acted as though he was at risk for infection. But after seeing the antibody results, he said, “my level of anxiety just increased.”

A spokeswoman at Abbott said the test had 100 percent sensitivity 17 days after symptoms began but did not provide information about sensitivity beyond that time.

Dr. Beatus Ofenloch-Haehnle, who heads immunoassay research at Roche, defended the company’s antibody test. His team has tracked N antibodies in 130 people who had mild to no symptoms and has not yet seen a decline, he said.

“There is some fluctuation, but no waning at all,” he said. “We have a lot of data, and we do not rely anymore on theory.” The N antibody can be a decent proxy for immunity, Dr. Ofenloch-Haehnle added.

He also pointed to a study by Public Health England that suggested that the Abbott and Roche tests seemed to perform well up to 73 days after symptom onset. “I think we should be careful to jump to conclusions too soon,” he said.

Other experts also urged caution. Without more information about what antibody testing results mean, they said, people should do as Dr. Berz did: Act as though they do not have immunity.

There is no definitive information as yet on what levels of antibodies are needed for immunity or how long that protection might last. “I think we’re getting closer and closer to that knowledge,” Dr. Iwasaki said.

By Apoorva Mandavilli
Published July 26, 2020
Updated July 27, 2020

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/26/heal ... tests.html

[Svartalf]

Or are having problems with English...

Physician, heal thyself!

Are you crazy to say such things? next thing we know he'll start posting 100% in Vlaams.

[DRSB]

Millions of over 50s could be told to stay at home to avoid a blanket second lockdown under 'nuclear plans' drawn up by Boris Johnson after bubble bursts on easing lockdown

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... QHCOx6ZE9g

[Scot Dutchy]

Or are having problems with English...

Physician, heal thyself!

Says he who has a problem speaking one language never mind understanding it.

[Tero]

Forbes:
But we don’t have to wait. Both of these vaccines (from Moderna and Oxford University/Astra Zeneca) have already been shown, in phase 1 trials, to be safe and probably effective. That’s why the companies are moving ahead and giving each vaccine to 30,000 more people: they are fairly confident that the vaccines are safe. The NY Times reports that 3 other Covid-19 vaccines are also in phase 3 trials: one from BioNTech and Pfizer, and two from Chinese companies, Sinopharm and Sinova Biotech.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalz ... g-now/amp/

[Tero]

A good portion of the public have T cells ready to fight this virus from previous viruses.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/02/health/g ... index.html

[NineBerry]

Our covidiots had a mass demonstration in the capital yesterday. The police estimates 20,000 participants so it was most likely not more than 30,000. I saw aerial photos of the demonstration. I was at the Love Parade in Berlin in 1999 where there were about 1.5 million people. The covidiot demo covered only a tiny percentage of the Love Parade area and the people weren't crowding as close as we were during the Love Parade, so the police estimate seems reasonable to me. Still, the covidiots claim they were 1.3 million people. :rolleyes: