UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Svartalf » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:14 am

see if we trust them again for the next 502 years
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:00 pm

The tories will make sure they will never lose power by hook or by crook. Welcome the one party state.
People have voted to be poor. Do they think Johnson will look after them? The turkeys have voted for xmas and thanksgiving. Well being the 51st state you will have to get used to great American traditions like owning guns and shooting up anyone you dont like.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:08 am
Fuck.
Nice one squirrel.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:40 pm

An analysis over Corbyn. I said it two years ago. A useless turd. Breqit was not the problem Corbyn was.

General election result: Nearly twice a ... poll finds
Despite Corbyn's claim the election 'was taken over ultimately by Brexit' just 21 per cent cited the issue as their main reason for switching parties

More voters turned against Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn rather than Brexit, according a poll probing the reasons for the party's greatest electoral defeat in decades.

Pollsters Opinium found that among 2017 Labour voters who defected at last night's general election, 37 per cent of them cited the leadership of the party as their main reason.

Despite Mr Corbyn's claim the election “was taken over ultimately by Brexit”, 21 per cent said they defected due to the party’s stance on EU membership while just six per cent said their main reason was Labour’s economic policies.

It comes as the Labour leader indicated he would step down from his role at the start of the new year, but remain in place for the duration of a leadership contest, which could take several months.

Among Labour voters who switched allegiances to the Tories, 45 per cent cited Mr Corbyn’s leadership as the main issue while 29 per cent of those who defected to the Liberal Democrats did so.
How will Labour resurrect itself? I say maybe in 20 years. It reminds me of Gaitskell in the time of Macmillan. Labour went into the wilderness. This time they will not return. The shoots of greed are very strong in the UK.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Alan B » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:00 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:00 pm
... like owning guns and shooting up anyone you dont like.
Bojo & Co had better watch out... :whistle:
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 pm

Well Alan they will be like the Orange Scrotum nice and safe in their towers.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:22 pm

Who expects anything from Johnson?
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by laklak » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:50 pm

Labour did exactly what the Dems are doing here - drastically overplaying their hand. Basically the handed the election to Boris, and our Dems will hand it to Trump. Even Obama has warned the Dems not to track too far left or they'll lose everything but are they listening? Not a fuck. Get ready for Tories in the UK, and a GOP House, Senate, and President here.

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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Seabass » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:30 am

laklak wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:50 pm
Labour did exactly what the Dems are doing here - drastically overplaying their hand. Basically the handed the election to Boris, and our Dems will hand it to Trump. Even Obama has warned the Dems not to track too far left or they'll lose everything but are they listening? Not a fuck. Get ready for Tories in the UK, and a GOP House, Senate, and President here.

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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Woodbutcher » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:31 am

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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:29 am

Here is how undemocratic the UK election system is:
Growing calls for electoral reform after vote share per party is revealed

Green MPs elected in yesterday’s general election represented more than 850,000 votes while SNP MPs represented under 26,000, according to figures from the Electoral Reform Society.

More than 330,000 votes were needed to elect a Liberal Democrat, compared to 50,000 for Labour and 38,000 for Plaid Cymru and Conservative candidates.

Meanwhile, the Brexit Party won more than 642,000 votes but failed to get any representatives in the House of Commons.

Overall, the Electoral Reform Society claims that 45.3% of votes did not get any representation, because of the number of voters who didn’t support the winning candidate.

Across Britain, it took...

🗳️864,743 votes to elect 1 Green MP
🗳️642,303 votes to elect 0 Brexit Party MPs
🗳️334,122 votes to elect a Lib Dem
🗳️50,817 votes for a Labour MP
🗳️38,316 votes for a Plaid Cymru MP
🗳️38,300 votes for a Con. MP
🗳️25,882 votes for a SNP MP
Very democratic. Johnson does not have a majority. It is the minority ruling the majority.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... -exit-poll
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:50 pm

Is this the end for Labour?

So there we have it. It turns out that the British working-class was not, in the end, willing to throw its weight behind a London-centric, youth-obsessed, middle-class party that preached the gospels of liberal cosmopolitanism and class war. Who’d have thought it?

Well, me for a start. And plenty of others who had been loyal to the party over many years and desperately wanted to see a Labour government, only to be dismissed as ‘reactionaries’ who held a ‘nostalgic’ view of the working-class.

It barely needs saying that these election results are an utter catastrophe for Labour. For the party to have failed to dislodge the Tories after nearly a decade of austerity and three years of political chaos is bad enough. But for the so-called Red Wall to have crumbled so spectacularly underlines the sheer scale of the failure. Bolsover, Blyth Valley, Leigh, Redcar, Don Valley, Sedgefield, Burnley, Great Grimsby, Wrexham — just a few of the long-time Labour strongholds in traditional working-class areas which have fallen to the Tories...

https://unherd.com/2019/12/is-this-the- ... ZLUne3zP0I


The plethora of gleeful admonishments, along with the morose hand-wringing, focusing on how Labour lost the election ignores and avoids discussion of how the Conservative won the election.

Personally I think the problem here wasn't with the 'confirmatory vote' idea itself but it's late arrival - the notion that a renegotiated deal to secure human/employment rights, formalise the status of EU citizens in the UK, and maintaining access to the largest trading block in human history were good things just didn't have time to bed in. The idea that the nation could make a legitimate choice between a non-hard Brexit and remaining in the EU wasn't given time to gain ground because Labour resolved that issue too late in the day.

We also have to see this kind of thing within the context of the Conservative's Brexit narrative which (with the help of their friends in the media) got a successfully re-brand from 'negotiating a deal with the EU will be the easiest thing in human history' during the ref campaign and before Mr May's deal into 'what people actually voted for in the referendum was a clean-break, hard Brexit'. This made the idea of securing workers rights and trade access to the EU fundamentally anti-Brexit.

Similarly, the Conservative Party continued to talk about the economy as if the country is run on a massive credit card. This cast Labour's spending plans as an unaffordable and unrealistic project to create debt on the nation's credit card, rather than the more realistic metaphor of tax revenues and borrowing being a kind of mortgage that creates real, tangible things like modernised infrastructure, renewable energy, and better services etc - all of which produce long term benefits that improve everyone's lives over time as well as creating jobs and having an economic multiplier effect.

As a nation in charge of its own currency all this could have been achieved in or out of the EU. After all post-2007 governments have tasked the Bank of England with securing the business-as-usual asset wealth of the financial sector to the tune of c.£1 trillion over 12 years. Even if the Conservative's charge that a Labour government would spend £1.2 trillion were true at least it would have gone on real, tangible things that act as solid economic drivers. By contrast, post-crash QE has not only produced nothing it has gone straight into increasing the asset value of those who already have a surfeit of assets while the proportion of GDP going to the workforce has fallen dramatically, household indebtedness has risen, work has become far more insecure, wages have stagnated and fallen in real terms to the point where working families now only have the same buying power as they did 40 years ago, public services are in crisis etc etc.

In my view the Conservative Party is now the party of the financial sector at a time when finance-led growth is coming to an end. All the Conservatives have to do now is sit on their hands for a year and the UK will fall out of the EU without a deal - which, no doubt, will be the EU's fault of course - and Brexit, which could have been a good thing and an impetus to refashion the economy towards a more stable, sustainable model that works for people (rather than people working for the economy), will probably lead most of us to a point where we finally understand what it's like to be a poor person living in a tax haven.

If Labour are to learn anything from this it's that sloganising works:

"No top-down reorganisation of the NHS!"
"Take back control!"
"Strong and stable government!"
"Get Brexit done!"

Saying "We will rebalance the economy away from unproductive asset growth in favour of working families by investing in infrastructure, renewable energy, and public services so that we can all enjoy a better quality of life and collectively reap the benefits of economic prosperity" isn't quite as catchy.

Labour should have stuck with "For the many not the few" - or maybe, "Make Britain Great Again!". ;)
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:14 pm

Sloganeering always works. The majority of people do not read party manifestos. Of course the majority of the media were on the tory side. All this does not excuse the labour leadership which was shit and far away and remote from its supporters. Corbyn should never have been elected. He was swapping horses in the home straight.
The turkeys did really vote for xmas. Do the people in North England really think the tories are going to do anything for them? They must be joking.
What gets me is the notion that having a majority in the HoC somehow gives them more power at the negotiating table with the EU. The EU now will be much tougher and there will be no kid-gloves now. The EU team of negotiators is 90 strong with a back up of a hundred or more. If Johnson thinks any FTA will be achieved in two years he will have to think again. He is going to learn how tough EU negotiators can be. This a hardened team remember who do nothing else.
Will Johnson hold his nerve against Trump? The joke of the century.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 pm

I think another problem is that the Labour party, like the US Democrats to some extent, are still working on the honour model whereas their opposition feel no such compulsion. The Labour manifesto was detailed and costed, and while all parties tend to cast their plans in the best light, they were upfront about costs and where it was coming from. The Tory manifest by contrast was written as nationalist propaganda that played patriotism over policy, so that when questioned on the manifest any Tory spokepiece only had to repeat that 'Getting Brexit done' would 'Make Britain great again' etc. This is how a party plays popularism without getting bogged down in details. Keeping Johnson away from antagonistic interviewers was also a way to push that propaganda without exposing it to public scrutiny and challenge. A favourable media and a BBC that was, frankly, played by the Troy PR machine ensured that all the critical focus was on the opposition parties.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Alan B » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:13 pm

Make Britain Great Again? Britain was only ever 'Great' when all the other nations it invaded were weaker. That is now no longer the case...

I think one of the problems with Labour is the extreme left unions playing politics and assuming the Labour Party was 'their party' to run as they thought fit. I found that disturbing and very uncomfortable. I voted for my Labour MP (not for Corbyn. What choice did I have?). My constituency is now fucking Tory. He did nothing to deserve that fate.

At the other extreme, with the Tories, the 'Tax-dodgers' knew that the Tory Party was theirs to do with as they will. They bought it wholesale.

Edit:
I think we should have a temporary military takeover to enforce mandatory voting with proportional representation... [/wishful thinking mode] :whistle:
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