UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

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Scot Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:51 am

Why the insults? It is not PR is it. It still only supports major parties or dont you understand how PR works?
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:05 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:51 am
It is not PR is it. It still only supports major parties or dont you understand how PR works?
It is, and I do.

The Australian Senate is in fact occupied by 26 members of the Liberal party, 6 Liberal National party members, 2 National party members and 1 Country Liberal member. They are the current government coalition. Non-government seats are as follows: Labor (26), Greens (9),
Centre Alliance (2), One Nation (2), Lambie Network (1) and Independent (1).

In the House of Representatives the government consists of 44 Liberal party members, 23 Liberal National party members and 10 National party member. 68 Labor party members, 1 Greens party member and 1 Independent occupy the non-government seats. No candidate from the United Australia party, One Nation party, Katter's Australian party and centre Alliance Party. Since the United Australia party only attracted 3.43% of all primary votes, One Nation 3.08%, Katter's outfit 0.49% and the so called Centre Alliance 0.33%, it is not altogether unreasonable that they did not win any seats.

You'll undoubtedly have problems accepting that there is more than one form of proportional representation, but when a government fills 51% of the seats in the House of Representative on the basis of receiving 51% of the popular vote after distribution of preferences, this looks very much like an example of proportional representation to me, especially in comparison with the latest election results in the UK, where it took only 43.6% of the popular vote for the Tories to win 56.2% of the House of Commons.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:05 am

As my grandma always used to say, "Proportional is as proportional does."
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:14 pm

It is not PR as it is a preference system that always supports major parties. That is what you seem yo have trouble understanding. There is only one true PR system.
Ireland as the same problem with their Single Transfer Voting system. The winning MP gets the majority of the vote but most voters second choice is for a major party as there are seldom two minority parties taking part in the same constituency so the voters have little choice. In fact their votes are wasted.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:08 pm


Hermit wrote: Image
Image


:sigh:

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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:59 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:14 pm
There is only one true PR system.
Yair, OK, Scotty.

Um, before I turn my mind to interesting stuff, can you answer this, please? Where on earth can we find the only one true PR system? Asking for a friend. She swears that it's a genuine question.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:32 pm

It is not only one country plenty have it. Preference systems are never true PR. Just think about it.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 pm

Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:14 pm
There is only one true PR system.
Yair, OK, Scotty.

Um, before I turn my mind to interesting stuff, can you answer this, please? Where on earth can we find the only one true PR system? Asking for a friend. She swears that it's a genuine question.
We all know the answer to that one. It's so obvious that I can't believe you really had to ask.

It's New Zealand. :)
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:33 pm

Amongst others.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:19 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:32 pm
It is not only one country plenty have it. Preference systems are never true PR. Just think about it.
I really can't be bothered occupying my time with your dogmatism, especially, since my original disagreement with you was not about proportional representation as such. In case you forgot what it was, here is a reminder: "Oh, if only people voted for the party that most closely reflects their interests." Too often they don't, and the Dutch voters are not an exception. Since the last election the Dutch coalition government, of which the largest member is the centre-right People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), has scheduled some changes to corporate tax rates. Surprise, surprise, they are scheduled to go down. The 2019 Dutch corporate tax rate is 19% of the taxable income up to and including €200,000, above which the rate is 25%. The lower rate will decrease to 16.5% in 2020. The rates will further decrease to 15% and 21.7% respectively in 2021. Where will the funds to make up for the budgetary shortfall come from? The Dutch government has not revealed that yet, but judging by precedents all over the world, the odds are London to a brick that the remedy will be funding cuts to social services. I also note that support for the equivalent of the Labour parties in other countries, the centre-left PvdA has plummeted from 24.8% in the 2012 elections to 5.7% in 2017.

All in all, not even in the Netherlands - and despite its PR voting system - do people necessarily vote for the party that most closely reflects their interests.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:00 pm

Thanks for the derail. We are not talking about policies which seem to fascinate you but systems. You are purely speculating. Enough of your nonsense. You know nothing of Dutch politics. The fall of the PvdA is self inflicted but of course you know that. How many more parties are there on the centre left? You have not got a clue because you cant think further than a two/three party system. BTW were are a very rich nation. People pay the Dutch government to borrow money but that like your post is a big fat derail.
I am talking about democratic systems.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:31 pm

Fascinating maps show huge divide between younger and older voters in general election

Image

A series of fascinating maps show the stark political divide between younger and older voters at the recent general election.
Twitter account Election Maps UK compiled how different age groups, ranging from 18 to 24s to over 65s, voted in the election – and what the result would have been if only one age group had voted.

The December poll ended in a Boris Johnson’s Conservative Party winning a huge majority of 80 – the biggest the Tories have secured since Margaret Thatcher in the 1987 election...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 23171.html
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:58 pm

Just proves more why FPTP is a lousy system.
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:55 pm

Actually, it identifies the political persuasion of the electorate by age.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: UK General Election, 12 Dec 2019

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:20 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:55 pm
Actually, it identifies the political persuasion of the electorate by age.
But it does not get them anywhere. They are lost votes which is the trick of FPTP. It is so bloody corrupt it makes a banana republic look respectable.
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