Evil Amazon

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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by rainbow » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:36 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 am
It is all very good Jim but how about the billions Chinese, Indians, SE Asians, Russians, Americans and the many Africans that do bugger all. There is a fire the size of the Netherlands burning in east Siberia and nothing is being done just waiting for winter to put it out.
The carbon footprint of the Africans, Indians, SE Asians (half the world's population) is a fraction of the Americans and Europeans (a tenth of the world's population).

Fix your overuse of resources before expecting the poor of the world to do so.
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:52 am

Yep. We (in the first world) need to be developing the technologies to rapidly reduce fossil fuel reliance, and exporting them cheaply to the third world. Of course, that won't happen, because capitalism.
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am

rainbow wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:36 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 am
It is all very good Jim but how about the billions Chinese, Indians, SE Asians, Russians, Americans and the many Africans that do bugger all. There is a fire the size of the Netherlands burning in east Siberia and nothing is being done just waiting for winter to put it out.
The carbon footprint of the Africans, Indians, SE Asians (half the world's population) is a fraction of the Americans and Europeans (a tenth of the world's population).

Fix your overuse of resources before expecting the poor of the world to do so.
So the third world has no responsibility? Who is talking carbon footprint? Very easy to duck. How about pollution? Waste disposal and plastic waste. Data is almost impossible to find.

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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by rainbow » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:34 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am
rainbow wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:36 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 am
It is all very good Jim but how about the billions Chinese, Indians, SE Asians, Russians, Americans and the many Africans that do bugger all. There is a fire the size of the Netherlands burning in east Siberia and nothing is being done just waiting for winter to put it out.
The carbon footprint of the Africans, Indians, SE Asians (half the world's population) is a fraction of the Americans and Europeans (a tenth of the world's population).

Fix your overuse of resources before expecting the poor of the world to do so.
So the third world has no responsibility?
It has responsibility in proportion to its impact. I thought I made that point rather obvious.
Who is talking carbon footprint? [/img]
I am. If you're not sure what you're talking about, you can't expect my help.
Very easy to duck. How about pollution?
How about it indeed. How much of the developed world's trash is being exported to developing countries?
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by rainbow » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:40 am

Of the 56.4 million tons of paper EU citizens threw away in 2016, some 8 million ended up in China, purchased by recycling centers that turn it into cardboard and send it back to Europe as packaging for Chinese exports. That same year, the EU collected 8.4 million tons of plastic waste, and sent 1.6 million tons to China.
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... e-problem/
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 am

I've tried to school SD a number of times regarding the fact that China is doing more than any other country in terms of renewable energy. Probably not per capita, but in gross amount.
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by rainbow » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 am


Turkey and China are the biggest recipients of European Union waste outside the bloc, the latest figures have revealed.

Exports of waste to non-EU countries reached 41.4 million tonnes last year, a 69% increase on 2004, according to the EU's statistical agency, Eurostat. Meanwhile, imports of waste from non-EU countries remained stable over the past 14 years at 13.1 million tonnes.Where does the EU export waste to?

Turkey was the main recipient state of EU waste in 2018, importing around 13 million tonnes. This represented a 5% decrease on the previous year but a threefold rise since 2004.

China came in second despite curbing imports of EU waste by 46% since a 2009 peak. Last year, it received 5.2 million tonnes.

It was closely followed by India, which boosted imports by 67% year-on-year to 4.7 million tonnes.
https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/12/whe ... e-the-bloc
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:16 pm

So they dont make any waste themselves. The are pristine clean. Once again blame the west as they are shifting all their muck over to Asia.

China generates more waste than any other country. How does it deal with it?
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:18 pm

China produces 220 million tonnes a year in waste. The 5.2 tonnes it receives from Europe is just a drop.
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:42 pm

JimC wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:01 pm
NineBerry wrote:

This is a really good point. Individual people making individual choices will not save the world, especially because no one can know all the indirect consequences your choices have. How can you know whether the bio seal of the tomatoes you buy can be trusted? How can you know under what circumstances the things you buy are produced?

It's nonsense to put the burden on the consumer. The state must make rules and enforce those rules. Now, here is where this collides with the idea of free trade. How can we have free trade and at the same time enforce social end ecological standards on the products we import?
Certainly individual actions by themselves will not "save the world", and serious decisions and actions by states are clearly needed. However, individual actions can make a contribution, IMO. Not so much in the area of choosing which evil company to buy gadgets from (which triggered this discussion), but things like:
* simply buying fewer gadgets, and hanging on to ones that still work rather than buying the newest flashy model
* solar cells on your roof
* as much as possible, using public transport, bikes or shank's pony, and if you do get a car, make it an economical one (or electric)
* if possible, grow some of your own food
* where you can, avoid packaging and single-use plastics
* and another important individual action, voting for parties with the best policies on the environment
I'm sure many other simple individual choices could be added...
We can't really modify global Capitalism or mitigate its effects simply by consuming differently: it's the systemic relationship of Capitalism's parts which is the problem, not necessarily the things it produces or the things we consumer. However, by taking individual action to change the way we consume we can demonstrate -- to both ourselves and to others -- that our motives and values are permeable, that we can re-evaluate, redefine, and reset our priorities and in so doing can still live rich, fulfilling and productive lives - just arranged differently with different stuff.

Though the cynic will baulk at Jim's list above there's nothing which is unreasonable or unachievable there - at least for people in Jim's situation. I think it's important to acknowledge that not everyone is society is in the same position, and while some can do more the opportunities for others can be, and often are, somewhat limited. We've all heard of the idea of 'food deserts' in relation to particularly poor urban areas, where access to fresh food and veg for example is limited by availability and/or by personal economic factors, but people can always do something to limit their adverse impacts on others and the environment if they are given the opportunity and a bit of positive encouragement.

I think 'encouragement' is a good word here, because to some extent it takes a measure of personal courage to examine one's personal and social activity and acknowledge the unvarnished consequences thereof. Those who would like to make the kinds of changes on Jim list then need to have the opportunity to do so - they need to be empowered, so to speak, which is to say they need both the opportunity to make consumer choices that limit the negative effects of their own consumption as well as the means to make those changes.

I think 'empowerment' is another good word because 'power' in this context, that ability to act, influence, decide, or control these particular aspects of our individual and collect existence, is something which is severely limited for most of us. Imbalances of power define the systems which global Capitalism has devised and exert in favour of its own ongoing, institutional interests but which nonetheless are increasingly acting to the detriment of the environment and ultimately of society at large.

Capitalists are people too (no, really!) and like the rest of us they're behaviour is simply a response to the conditions of their environments. The individual Capitalists who act within the global theatre of Capitalism all live in the same communities and societies that we live in - the only difference between 'them' and 'us' being their material conditions. So it follows that individual Capitalists are just as capable of making the kinds of changes on Jim list as anybody else - perhaps more so given the particular freedoms their economic success affords them. In the face of an environmental crisis that, if left unchecked, is going to effect everyone pretty much equally badly in the end, individual Capitalists also need to be encouraged and empowered in the same way everyone else needs to be: empowered to re-evaluate, redefine, and reset their motives and values, and in so doing challenge their assumptions and change their priorities to focus on a system that embodies a more balanced state of affairs.

So while individual action may seem fruitless in the short term it doesn't mean that resistance is futile. The only way were are going to empower Capitalism to restructure its priorities is to represent our own shift in priorities in our choices - by making changes in the way we live our lives, in the way we vote, and by acknowledging the reasons for these necessary changes in the way we organise our societies and pointing out the benefits for ourselves and for the generations that follow.

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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Hermit » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:59 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:18 pm
China produces 220 million tonnes a year in waste. The 5.2 tonnes it receives from Europe is just a drop.
Thanks for the cherry-pick special. Now for some context:

China: population (2019) - 1,420,062,022; waste (2006) - 220 million tons; plastic waste/person - 0.12kg/day
United States: population (2019) 329,093,110; waste (2007) - 254 million tons; plastic waste/person - 0.34kg/day

So, while China has 4.3 time the population of the USA it still produces less total waste and a lot less waste per person, which is pretty much what Rainbow alluded to.

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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:21 pm

He did not. He was on about how bad the west was at dumping waste in Asia. I could not care how much they are producing per head. They have a massive population and that gives them excuse to produce so much waste? What has the most effect?
What is more important a big country with a huge population producing a massive waste problem or a small island with a few hundred inhabitants producing per capita double of the former. What has the greater influence on the environment. China produces one hell of a lot of waste.
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Hermit » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:56 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:21 pm
He did not.
Did so:
rainbow wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:36 am
The carbon footprint of the Africans, Indians, SE Asians (half the world's population) is a fraction of the Americans and Europeans (a tenth of the world's population).

Fix your overuse of resources before expecting the poor of the world to do so.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:21 pm
I could not care how much they are producing per head. They have a massive population and that gives them excuse to produce so much waste? What has the most effect?
What is more important a big country with a huge population producing a massive waste problem or a small island with a few hundred inhabitants producing per capita double of the former. What has the greater influence on the environment. China produces one hell of a lot of waste.
I admire your ability to ignore facts. For instance, in the post immediately above yours - you know, the one you are ostensibly replying to - I quoted statistics for you showing that the USA not only produces more waste per person, but also more total waste than China, which has 4.3 times the population of the US.

The reason why this does matter is that we can't prohibit 1.4 billion Chinese to reach the levels of consumption - and generate the same levels of waste production - that we in the west enjoy. Same applies to the 1.35 billion Indians, the 270 million Indonesians and so forth.

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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Indeed. The West has an obligation to revise the system because we're the only ones in a position to do so.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Evil Amazon

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:41 pm

The rest not?
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