All things Boris: has it really come to this?

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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:22 am

Less we forget...

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:33 am

It's a shame the cunt didn't die.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:37 am

What, and have the Randian true believers given the keys to the drinks cabinet? Nah, I'm glad he recovered, if only to account for the 'some of you will die, but that's a price I'm willing to pay' policies the government adopted early on.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:39 am

Nice conspiracy theory there Brian. Poor innocent Corbyn.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:17 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:39 am
Nice conspiracy theory there Brian. Poor innocent Corbyn.
You can only call it a conspiracy theory if the report either doesn't exist or doesn't say what I've reported. A basic internet search can corroborate what I've said. It's an 880-page report with references to over 10,000 internal emails and archives of WhatsApp groups - that one presumes people were backing up in order to have leverage over each other. The fact that Starmer has promoted a few of the people mentioned and withheld submitting the report to the independent investigation of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is a curious coincidence.

Former general secretary Iain (Lord) McNicol steps down as party whip following leaked report.
Labour Leaks exposed a ‘rot’ not just in the party, but in the union movement too
Anti-Corbyn Labour officials regard party as 'their personal property', Len McCluskey says
Labour Official Who Undermined Party and Mocked Staff Was in Running for General Secretary Under Starmer
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:49 am

Where is the wondrous report then. All I see a references to it. Because its Corbyn it is not a conspiracy?
A former senior Labour official has resigned from the party’s front bench after being implicated in an alleged conspiracy against Jeremy Corbyn.
The Labour party is in total disarray it has not got clue what is happening internally. Corbyn was sweet and innocent? He was for 40 years a back bencher. He knew the ropes but he lacked everything to be a leader.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:21 am

I think Corbyn's main problem was thinking he could appease the right of the party, giving them power and responsibility in the hope of uniting it. The right of the party were constantly painting him as intolerant and closed-minded to their ideas, and every time he proved them wrong they just doubled-down. He inherited a party where the political inclinations of a great many Labour MPs didn't reflect the views of membership, or even show the membership much respect either. What the leaked report shows is that the right of the party had no inclination or intention to play along for the sake of getting into government. It strikes me as rather sociopathic of the Blairyte right to deliberately harm the party's election prospects and privately brief against the leader in a party whose membership were in overwhelming support of the leadership and their party's policies. As McClusky said, those party officials simply thought that the party was their property to do with as they wished.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:40 pm

That of course is your opinion. He was a useless leader. A leader worth half his salts would solve party divisions but he never could as he was the problem and not the solution. Why do you keep trying to defend him when he did not do his job? This wondrous membership another part of the Corbyn fiction.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:30 pm

Of course it's an opinion, but one founded in fact at least. Everything you know about Corbyn you got through the media.



If Corbyn had purged those briefing against him he would have be accused of being a Stalinist. As it was he tried to create a broad church and still the Capital wing of the party wasn't happy. The press called an avowed anti-racist a racist, just like they call anti-fascists fascists, and the job they did on him was total and relentless because... well.. ...because he said he wanted to redistribute a bit of wealth in favour of ordinary working people. Go figure.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:34 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:30 pm
Of course it's an opinion, but one founded in fact at least. Everything you know about Corbyn you got through the media.
What fact?

If Corbyn had purged those briefing against him he would have be accused of being a Stalinist. As it was he tried to create a broad church and still the Capital wing of the party wasn't happy. The press called an avowed anti-racist a racist, just like they call anti-fascists fascists, and the job they did on him was total and relentless because... well.. ...because he said he wanted to redistribute a bit of wealth in favour of ordinary working people. Go figure.
Where was his leadership? That is his job. Keeping unity in the party is what is all about and he failed big time. Creating a broad church. :funny: Sorry the Momentum church. It was a typical left wing ploy. Blame the right when banging on the front door and slip quietly in the back and take over. The trouble is Labour was never a left wing party which is what the left never understood.
The problem is caused by the UK's FPTP system. Our parties are more splintered and they represent a particular view. Your system requires a broad coverage which is virtually impossible. Your leaders have to know the dark knowledge of back stabbing and intrigue. A party cant be ruled otherwise. Corbyn had been on the back benches too long and did not have the knowledge so he failed.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:12 pm

And as I said, he compromised in an attempt accommodate those ideologically opposed to him and the vast majority of the membership in order to create a broad church, and still they conspired to undermine him. How do you lead people who refuse to be led? Thirteen years of Blairism transformed the party from one that represented the interests of working people into one more akin to the UK version of the Democratic Party - a centre-right party that claimed to hold Capital in check in order to put it to use for social goods. This became clear after Miliband tried to forge ahead on the basis of the Tories economic narrative about the party: that Labour had caused the economic crash and had ruined the country by running up a deficit. This was factual as well as economic bollocks of course (borrowing was high because we'd just bailed out the financial sector). Corbyn offered an alternative to the Tories austerity project, but Blairites still held many positions of power and responsibility in the party and took the view (and still do) that you have to be Tory in you economic outlook in order to be seen by the electorate as a serious politician. When Corbyn came along with the idea that people were more important than the economy and that a financialised political system was antithetical to the interests of ordinary people the Blairites literally lost their shit.

I don't think you claim that Corbyn was politically naive really stands up. Firstly, you don't hold your seat for nearly 40 years in UK politics unless what you're doing works for your constituency and your party, and you're forgetting that the party voted, twice, for him as a leader who had a solid set of principles but wasn't closed to compromising to get the party into power. But even so those working against him within the party could never accept that he'd put his commitment to improving the material conditions of ordinary people ahead of their personal political interests.

In the 2017 election Labour polled the same % that returned Blair to power in 2001, a higher % than that which had returned Blair to power in 2005, and far more than the defeats under Brown and Miliband in 2010 and 2015. If not for the Tories re-drawing of the constituency boundaries while in coalition with the Lib Dems Labour would have been elected in 2017--Labour getting a slightly higher % of the popular vote but a disproportionately lower % of seat--and yet the Captial-wing of the Labour party re-doubled their efforts to conspire with the Tory press to cast him as a failure and smear him as a racist control freak.

On the question of PR I don't disagree. Not only do I think PR is a more reasonable and practical way of gauging 'the will of the people', I also think it's embarrassing that the Eurovision Song Contest is more democratic than the UK electoral system. The preference voting system here in Scotland for the Scottish Parliament elections excludes the extremes and returns stable government that are willing to compromise. Plurality voting systems rely on shifting the Overton window left or right, and where the influence and concentration of power is held by Capital interests that window is always subject to pressure in only one direction. That we're talking about Corbyn and the Labour party in the Boris Johnson thread is a testament to the reach of Capital and the prevalence of their political and economic narratives in UK politics - it simply creates situations where the parties of opposition come under far more scrutiny than the party which represents those interests.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:30 pm

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:51 am

Holding a very safe seat for 40 years is not exceptional under FPTP. He voted against his party over 500 times. To think somebody like him could unite the party was also very naive. He was a tool of the left wing which in turn became Momentum who naively thought they could remove the right of the party instead of negotiating. Corbyn cant negotiate another great failing but typical of British politics. The adversarial attitude of the British system will never produce a stable government that represents the majority. Corbyn was in the mould of many previous leaders especially Foot and Gaitskell. Another two very naive leaders both suffered at the hands of major tory leaders.
The comparison to Foot was laughed at when Corbyn was elected but his political career has ended almost identically. Foot was another promising the moon leader. It is almost inbuilt in left wing leaders to think that people will turn and support them on their promises. They forget two major points; 1. The tory press which includes the television and digital, 2. The greed of people. There is no solidarity amongst workers anymore. With the introduction of the "right to buy" by Thatcher created a new working class with great expectations. Corbyn failed to realise that this group were not interested in social adhesion. He thought he could get out the old left wing drums and people would follow him.
He was not a man of this time but a relic of the 50's and 60's who had dreams of being Attlee and reintroducing the welfare state. Now that was naive as was his non stance on Brexit.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by JimC » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:54 am

I suspect there is something in what you are saying, Scot. But, even without assigning any special blame to Corbyn, my point remains - for whatever the reason, the divisions within the Labour Party, exaggerated as they may be by the press, are allowing the Tories to maintain their grip on power...
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:58 am

Corbyn wanted the UK to be more like the Netherlands. You'd think Scot would support something like that. :dunno:
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