All things Boris: has it really come to this?

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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:43 am

The 1% over the top? Do you know who they are? Thatcher told Howard she wanted to take over and run it for the UK benefit. Maybe you were not around then? I was. The carry on with Delore? He gave in very easily to her. She totally underestimated the same thing that the Brexiteers have underestimated: European unity. The UK has been having a brown arm relationship with the US for far too long thanks to the tories which is where the Blond Scrotum wants to go back to.
You cant remember the response of the 1% when the Euro appeared? It would not last a year and they would see to it.
The tories never wanted the EEC or EU because they cant fiddle.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:43 am

I think your point is somewhat undermined by it's generality Scot, not because I don't think that Capital is conspiring to transform social and economic conditions to serve and benefit the interests of Capital, but because it does not account for the very real frustrations and anger of ordinary working people in the face of those transformations. At the moment those with power are able to promote and maintain blame narratives that focus on immigration, elites and the left etc but at some point that won't be enough - they'll have to up their game to deal with growing discontent. Johnson's proposal to put 20,000 more police on the streets should probably be seen in that context.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:55 am

European Unity? is there such a thing? I doubt so, especially since the rise of the Visegrad group.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Hermit » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:59 am

Svartalf wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:55 am
European Unity? is there such a thing? I doubt so, especially since the rise of the Visegrad group.
I recommend you read what that group says about itself
The Visegrad Group (also known as the "Visegrad Four" or simply "V4") reflects the efforts of the countries of the Central European region to work together in a number of fields of common interest within the all-European integration. Czechia, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia have always been part of a single civilization sharing cultural and intellectual values and common roots in diverse religious traditions, which they wish to preserve and further strengthen.

All the V4 countries aspired to become members of the European Union, perceiving their integration in the EU as another step forward in the process of overcoming artificial dividing lines in Europe through mutual support. They reached this aim in 2004 (1st May) when they all became members of the EU.

The V4 was not created as an alternative to the all-European integration efforts, nor does it try to compete with the existing functional Central European structures. Its activities are in no way aimed at isolation or the weakening of ties with the other countries. On the contrary the Group aims at encouraging optimum cooperation with all countries, in particular its neighbours, its ultimate interest being the democratic development in all parts of Europe.

The Visegrad Group wishes to contribute towards building the European security architecture based on effective, functionally complementary and mutually reinforcing cooperation and coordination within existing European and transatlantic institutions.
In light of the fact that the Visegrad Group was founded 13 years before all its member countries joined the EU I regard your post as full of shit.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by rainbow » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:23 am

Hermit wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:59 am
In light of the fact that the Visegrad Group was founded 13 years before all its member countries joined the EU I regard your post as full of shit.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by NineBerry » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:33 am

The Czech definitely have the cuter gay porn stars compared to the Poles. So, no reason for the Poles to look down on the Czechs

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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:54 am

well, the Poles sure have mouthwatering pop stars, I wonder if Czech girls are as cute.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Brian do you think the 1% are bothered by the frustrations of the working classes? I dont think so.
Why do they need the 20,000 police for? Window dressing? Not for security.
The aim of the 1% is world dominance and that includes Russia's oligarchs, Chinese entrepreneurs and Indian industrialists. They have more in common than any other division of society. The EU along with a couple of countries are the only hope in this world but it will be a tough fight.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by NineBerry » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:24 pm

The problem with having a shared market without also regulating a lot of different stuff (EU Speak: Harmonizing) is that it causes a lot of problems.

Free movement of goods. If country A has different rules on what types of products are allowed to be sold and what type of documentation they have to come with and so forth, this is a mess. What advantage is there in being able to sell a product in 20 countries when you have to have your legal department work out different legal stuff for each of the twenty countries?

It's even more of a problem when people start moving. I don't understand how people can think free movement of people for the purpose of employment works when every country has its own system of unemployment benefits, pensions, and so on. Imagine I work 5 years in Germany, 5 years in Austria, 5 years in France, 5 years in Sweden and so on. I would have worked all my life but no secure pension available because there is no common system. Live in German but work in France: Who pays your unemployment benefits when you are fired? Germany or France?

You can't have a shared market without creating the same legal platform that all the countries operate on. If people don't acknowledge that soon, the EU project is doomed to failure.
Last edited by NineBerry on Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:36 pm

That is what the Brexiteers were hoping for (delay) but realised they were being out flanked and tried to pull the plug on the EU which has drastically failed.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by rainbow » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:57 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:24 pm
The problem with having a shared market without also regulating a lot of different stuff (EU Speak: Harmonizing) is that it causes a lot of problems.

Free movement of goods. If country A has different rules on what types of products are allowed to be sold and what type of documentation they have to come with and so forth, this is a mess. What advantage is there in being able to sell a product in 20 countries when you have to have your legal department work out different legal stuff for each of the twenty countries?

It's even more of a problem when people start moving. I don't understand how people can think free movement of people for the purpose of employment works when every country has its own system of unemployment benefits, pensions, and so on. Imagine I work 5 years in Germany, 5 years in Austria, 5 years in France, 5 years in Sweden and so on. I would have worked all my life but no secure pension available because there is no common system. Live in German but work in France: Who pays your unemployment benefits when you are fired? Germany or France?

You can't have a shared market without creating the same legal platform that all the countries operate on. If people don't acknowledge that soon, the EU project is doomed to failure.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:36 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:11 pm
Brian do you think the 1% are bothered by the frustrations of the working classes? I dont think so.

They might not be bothered by the material conditions of the working class but they're certainly concerned with their frustrations and anger - having significantly contributed to those frustrations though Austerity, which have subsequently been stoked and amplified particularly in the run up to and since the Brexit referendum.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:11 pm
Why do they need the 20,000 police for? Window dressing? Not for security.
The state always manifests its authority through the legislature and through those bodies it legally empowers to enforce its will. The question is, whose interests are a Johnson government really representing - the interests of the public or the interests of Capital.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:11 pm
The aim of the 1% is world dominance and that includes Russia's oligarchs, Chinese entrepreneurs and Indian industrialists. They have more in common than any other division of society. The EU along with a couple of countries are the only hope in this world but it will be a tough fight.
If the 1% have an aim is to undermine the democratic, economic, judicial, political and social institutions which would otherwise apply the brakes when a state acts against the public interest.

As I've said to you before, I think you're mistaken to lump everyone who voted Leave in the referendum in with Machiavellian Libertarians. There's no single, simple reason more than half the population voted to Leave the EU - different people voted Leave for different reasons, just like those who voted Remain. To blame the working class for a no-deal Brexit is like blaming the stable lads for the charge of the Light Brigade.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Rum » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:06 pm

People I spoke with who were going to vote leave had a multitude of reasons for doing so. Some of them irrational, some thought through and some based on let’s call it ‘patriotism’. My ex’s wife’s husband in one conversation I had (he’s an idiot and I cut it short) said ‘we don’t want foreigners making our laws any more’. Simple as that.

And while it was the Tory grandees that forced the referendum, it was hit and miss whether it would happen. Cameron felt badgered into it just to get rid of a running sore and was clearly expecting remain to win.

As you say these things are complex and multifaceted.

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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by rainbow » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:16 am

Boris is going to throw a lot of money at social services, hospitals and law enforcement, or at least pretend that he will.
Maybe the police quite a lot, since there will be a lot of disappointed people when he can't deliver.

Fun times.
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Re: All things Boris: has it really come to this?

Post by Rum » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:00 am

It’s hard to know. As things stand the Tories would flat out lose a general election - they are very unpopular, though the public isn’t keen on the alternatives either.

My best guess is he’ll call an election pretty soon after we leave. There will be great national ‘relief’ that the whole sorry mess has been concluded. He’ll take the credit and hope there’s a brief period of euphoria, when he’ll stand a better chance of winning.

Then it’s uncharted territory.

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