Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by laklak » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:11 pm

You want that Lane Assist option? Back-up camera? Cruise control? Automatic braking? Pay up, sucka, you want your kids to die you fucking cheapskate? Safety ain't free, ya know.

Consider the source of the anti-Boeing stuff - Europeans. Who competes with Boeing? Airbus. Heavily subsidized by various European governments, of course, because they can't compete in an open market with honest-to-God 'Murikan can-do get 'er done, know-how. Too busy making sure all the Muzzies aren't being traumatized by nasty Nazi motherfuckers, I imagine.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:15 pm

It's just that you seem to see nothing wrong with the equation that more money = safer and healthier life.

I mean, I know that it actually does, but it is not a healthy way for a society to be...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Rum » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:27 pm

laklak wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:11 pm
You want that Lane Assist option? Back-up camera? Cruise control? Automatic braking? Pay up, sucka, you want your kids to die you fucking cheapskate? Safety ain't free, ya know.

Consider the source of the anti-Boeing stuff - Europeans. Who competes with Boeing? Airbus. Heavily subsidized by various European governments, of course, because they can't compete in an open market with honest-to-God 'Murikan can-do get 'er done, know-how. Too busy making sure all the Muzzies aren't being traumatized by nasty Nazi motherfuckers, I imagine.
I’m not jumping to any conclusions about this crash, but if you think Boeing isn’t ‘subsidised’ however indirectly I think you are displaying a certain naivety.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Svartalf » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:58 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:07 pm
Selling safety features as extras! Its a fucking plane. Not a household appliance.
Yeah, that one does smell of shitassery... I don't fly much anymore, but If I can, I'll fly airbus

because 'safety feature' that are sold as extra is already a shithead move, but not telling people properly how to deal with them, that's deliberately putting hundereds of people's lives in jeopardy, and that I can't condone.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:53 am

Well that's the difference between a plane and a car. Cars are basically designed and delivered safe. You buy the extras for comfort. A plane should have every safety feature it can get. They are not for comfort.

When the Comets were falling from the skies Boeing used military money to give discounts on its 707's. (I cant find the story anymore).
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:00 pm

This was in my Dutch paper but what caught my eye was that the CEO of Boeing signs things with just his first name:

Image

That is not legal here.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:37 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:53 am
Well that's the difference between a plane and a car. Cars are basically designed and delivered safe. You buy the extras for comfort. A plane should have every safety feature it can get. They are not for comfort.

When the Comets were falling from the skies Boeing used military money to give discounts on its 707's. (I cant find the story anymore).
The safest cars are almost never the entry level models. Even when an entry level model is deemed one of the safest its price can be well above what people who typically shop for entry level models can afford (e.g. a very safe Honda entry level vs entry level KIA). In fact for the safest KIA you have to pay over 30k. Many people are looking to spend under 10 and definitely under 20.

Now consider that nearly 40,000 people die in traffic accidents every year in the US.

==//--//==

Really, I think a lot of the outrage we are seeing here is because planes falling out of the sky is so rare and so much more terrifying for most people than a car wreck. But the reality is probably that Boeing has a great safety record.
shut up

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Tero » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:39 pm

Pilot explains 737 prior to latest Max version. The engines are so heavy that you never use thrust to level a plane.
http://youtu.be/TlinocVHpzk
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:44 pm

shut up

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:28 pm

Tero wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:39 pm
Pilot explains 737 prior to latest Max version. The engines are so heavy that you never use thrust to level a plane.
http://youtu.be/TlinocVHpzk
Right, so it's a simple procedure - in a stall situation disengage the autoassists, trim nose down to regain airspeed, gradually increase thrust slowly so that the low-slung engines do not induce a secondary stall situation by driving the nose upward (simple physics - they're slung well blow the centre of gravity so when you blast the engines they want to rotate the aircraft nose up), when airspeed has been regained trim neutral and gradually regain altitude, once altitude and airspeed are correct for your flight plan resume autoassists. That's the standard procedure.

The MCAS that automates the trimming of the stabilizers apparently confounded the pilots of Ethiopian Airlines - I agree with Lak and put this down to incompetence due to poor training on their aircraft. The question is who is responsible for this failure to provide training? Boeing or the airline?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Tero » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:57 pm

Well, that was generally how you fly a 737 of recent design. But the Max8 may have bad fixes of its own.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:21 pm

How does the MCAS alter the procedure and why weren't the pilots trained for it? :ask:

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Seabass » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:15 pm

Jason wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:28 pm
The MCAS that automates the trimming of the stabilizers apparently confounded the pilots of Ethiopian Airlines - I agree with Lak and put this down to incompetence due to poor training on their aircraft. The question is who is responsible for this failure to provide training? Boeing or the airline?
A "safety feature" shouldn't send hundreds of people plummeting to their deaths if the pilots haven't received the most up-to-date training.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by Svartalf » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:17 pm

Boeing has taken good lessons from Micro$haft ; it's not a bug is you declare it's a feature.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines crash: Boeing faces safety questions over 737 Max 8 jets

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:48 pm

Jason wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:28 pm
Tero wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:39 pm
Pilot explains 737 prior to latest Max version. The engines are so heavy that you never use thrust to level a plane.
http://youtu.be/TlinocVHpzk
Right, so it's a simple procedure - in a stall situation disengage the autoassists, trim nose down to regain airspeed, gradually increase thrust slowly so that the low-slung engines do not induce a secondary stall situation by driving the nose upward (simple physics - they're slung well blow the centre of gravity so when you blast the engines they want to rotate the aircraft nose up), when airspeed has been regained trim neutral and gradually regain altitude, once altitude and airspeed are correct for your flight plan resume autoassists. That's the standard procedure.

The MCAS that automates the trimming of the stabilizers apparently confounded the pilots of Ethiopian Airlines - I agree with Lak and put this down to incompetence due to poor training on their aircraft. The question is who is responsible for this failure to provide training? Boeing or the airline?
Apparently Boeing didn't document the system in the manual. So it was hard for the airlines to know that they needed to train for it.
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