Media Bias

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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:42 am

Indeed, that's what 'the particulars' are all about, even if some fail to recognise the far-right's ideals, aims, demands and actions for what they are.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:25 am

"By their fruit ye shall know them"

(even the Devil can quote scripture...)
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:10 am

"Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee." :tea:
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Re: Media Bias

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:20 am

"Bomb the cunts!"
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Re: Media Bias

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:01 am

The gospel according to rEv...
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:03 am

Well that is HIS level.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:15 am
You'll have to show that his association with alt-right groups was subsequent to his milkshaking and not prior.

Did you ever have a 4chan account?
No, it's enough to know that you think violence is ok, just for that association.

I was talking about the beating a couple years ago, at the Portland Antifa rally. He spoke at length about it on the Weinstein podcast.

I'm not surprised though, if it was minimized by the 'friends-of-antifa' in the media.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:05 am
So what are "the particulars" of the alt-right, and more specifically where do you think you're right about "the particulars" and where do you think others are wrong? I'm asking you this because you seem to have enough of an idea about the particulars of the alt-right to be able to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for.
I don't know. When I heard Milo Yiannopolous was 'alt-right', I went and listened. He said he wasn't.

So lets start with that (admittedly difficult) case, if you like. Does he deserve violence? What for?

I mean, reporting on public streets was the only behaviour you identified to justify violent attacks on Mr. Ngo. That and 'being associated with' the alt-right...
JimC wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:19 am
In most cases, defining neo-Nazis from the outside using criteria that could be argued over is unnecessary. Their own words, spoken, on banners, written in communiques, books or on the web self define them with evident pride and bravado.
Yes, like a big, red commie fist, or calls to violence against political opponents.

The trouble is, if you define enough people as 'alt-right' and 'alt-right-adjacent' or whatever Andy Ngo is, then you pretty much allow violence against anyone, to be used by a political movement.

It's why I would rather defend the right of people to speak. Without that right, people go to their next-best option.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:24 pm

Project Veritas just released another investigation. This time showing facebook and their bias.

https://www.projectveritas.com/

My guess is that it won't convince any of you of media bias. Someone should probably hurry in and attack Tom Fitton's character, and ignore the evidence in the videos.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:26 pm

Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:15 am
You'll have to show that his association with alt-right groups was subsequent to his milkshaking and not prior.

Did you ever have a 4chan account?
No, it's enough to know that you think violence is ok, just for that association.
You're putting words into my mouth. Are you a pacifist - do you think that one should never defend one's self or those you love?
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
I was talking about the beating a couple years ago, at the Portland Antifa rally. He spoke at length about it on the Weinstein podcast.
So was I. He wasn't there as an impartial observer but a supporter after previously identifying anti-fascists protestors to far-right groups who then, as I said, paid a couple of counter-protestors a home visit. We discussed this at the time in the Alt-Right and Punching Nazis threads. I even linked to a couple of the posts to refresh your memory. So why are you ignoring these uncomfortable truths? I have my own ideas but I'd prefer that you explained it for yourself in case I'm not quite understanding something.

Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
I'm not surprised though, if it was minimized by the 'friends-of-antifa' in the media.
As I said earlier, you can think of anti-fascist demonstrators as counter protesters. That's an honest and legitimate context in which to have this discussion, and one you seem very keen on avoiding. Why is that?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:47 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:26 pm
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:15 am
You'll have to show that his association with alt-right groups was subsequent to his milkshaking and not prior.

Did you ever have a 4chan account?
No, it's enough to know that you think violence is ok, just for that association.
You're putting words into my mouth. Are you a pacifist - do you think that one should never defend one's self or those you love?
I'm mostly a pacifist.

If you redefine words to mean violence, you can do all kinds of things. Ngo filmed, and made that film available. The others who acted on it may have been criminal, he wasn't.

Words should be answered with words.
So was I. He wasn't there as an impartial observer but a supporter after previously identifying anti-fascists protestors to far-right groups
Again, if they are protestors, they don't have some right to privacy.

Am I missing something?
who then, as I said, paid a couple of counter-protestors a home visit.
So you arrest those doing the 'home visit', if appropriate.

He was recording a protest. If protesters don't want to be identified, they should protest from home, behind a proxy.
We discussed this at the time in the Alt-Right and Punching Nazis threads. I even linked to a couple of the posts to refresh your memory. So why are you ignoring these uncomfortable truths? I have my own ideas but I'd prefer that you explained it for yourself in case I'm not quite understanding something.
I don't think Ngo's politics make it ok to be violent against him.

Pretty simple, really.
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
I'm not surprised though, if it was minimized by the 'friends-of-antifa' in the media.
As I said earlier, you can think of anti-fascist demonstrators as counter protesters. That's an honest and legitimate context in which to have this discussion, and one you seem very keen on avoiding. Why is that?
Protest is peaceful. Those protesting peacefully have no expectation of privacy. If you don a mask, and commit crimes, that isn't peaceful, and isn't protest in the way that respectful citizens agree.

Andy Ngo doesn't strike me as dangerous or violent. If he is, you haven't proved it. Only showed that you think his politics are not good. You have hinted that some of his viewers are a danger, maybe they are.

But that doesn't excuse assaulting a reporter. It outs the assaulter as a fascist, amusingly enough.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:48 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:20 am
"Bomb the cunts!"
there are any number of cunts I'd like to submit to flesh missile bombardment.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:56 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:48 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:20 am
"Bomb the cunts!"
there are any number of cunts I'd like to submit to flesh missile bombardment.
I suggest you make more offers. Maybe a t-shirt saying "Mon cochon a besoin d'une couverture"

I hear french chicks like the direct approach...
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:08 pm

Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:05 am
So what are "the particulars" of the alt-right, and more specifically where do you think you're right about "the particulars" and where do you think others are wrong? I'm asking you this because you seem to have enough of an idea about the particulars of the alt-right to be able to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for.
I don't know.
Then you have no right to speak on the matter or "to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for."
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
When I heard Milo Yiannopolous was 'alt-right', I went and listened. He said he wasn't.
What are "the particulars" of Milo's politics?
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
So lets start with that (admittedly difficult) case, if you like. Does he deserve violence? What for?
I can understand why you would like to change the subject but it keeps coming back to the same things doesn't it? Do you think there's some accommodating middle ground between fascism and not-fascism where everyone can exist in harmony and peace?
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
I mean, reporting on public streets was the only behaviour you identified to justify violent attacks on Mr. Ngo. That and 'being associated with' the alt-right...
Nope, you're putting words in my mouth again. You basically asked me if I agreed if filming a public protest was a legitimate thing to do, to which I replied...
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm
Protesting us is public act. If someone films that so what?
On it's own, as an act, I don't have a problem with it - but that's not the context here is it, which is why I asked the question I did. Ngo had already used his "journalism", of which filming is merely a part, as an intelligence gathering exercise to provide information to the fash about people disrupting their events - the consequences of which you're not only keen to avoid acknowledging but seem to go out of your way to ignore.

The question I asked earlier is both pertinent and relevent to the context here...
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:59 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:43 pm
Mostly, it sounds like, after listening to Andy Ngo, antifa likes to obscure their identity, and dislikes having their activities filmed, or their people identified.
Identified by whom, to whom, and for what purpose?
If Ngo filming was simply a matter of providing a public record of events then it'd be pretty easy to answer that question wouldn't it? However, everything that has followed that question has involved you dodging the elephant in the room, that Ngo operates his "journalism" as a propaganda tool for white-supremecists, far-right, fascist causes. And before you give in to the reflex to change the subject or pretend that nobody knows how to tell a fascist from a pineapple I'd just remind you that, as you pointed out, we can understand and talk about this by looking at "the particulars of those groups".

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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:08 pm
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:05 am
So what are "the particulars" of the alt-right, and more specifically where do you think you're right about "the particulars" and where do you think others are wrong? I'm asking you this because you seem to have enough of an idea about the particulars of the alt-right to be able to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for.
I don't know.
Then you have no right to speak on the matter or "to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for."
You won't name the acts you think deserve violent response, but want me to respect your judgement that some folks are 'alt-right'?

Doesn't track. You have to make sense in a way that your political opponent can make the same sense.
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
When I heard Milo Yiannopolous was 'alt-right', I went and listened. He said he wasn't.
What are "the particulars" of Milo's politics?
I don't know. He's a comic, provocateur and public figure. Thought you might have him listed as 'alt-right'. Of course, you won't list what makes someone 'alt-right', nor provide a list of actions which make someone 'alt-right'.

Is Trump 'alt-right'? Hitchins?
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
So lets start with that (admittedly difficult) case, if you like. Does he deserve violence? What for?
I can understand why you would like to change the subject but it keeps coming back to the same things doesn't it? Do you think there's some accommodating middle ground between fascism and not-fascism where everyone can exist in harmony and peace?
I don't believe antifa is against fascism, just because they use that name.

Actions speak louder than words.
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
I mean, reporting on public streets was the only behaviour you identified to justify violent attacks on Mr. Ngo. That and 'being associated with' the alt-right...
Nope, you're putting words in my mouth again. You basically asked me if I agreed if filming a public protest was a legitimate thing to do, to which I replied...
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm
Protesting us is public act. If someone films that so what?
On it's own, as an act, I don't have a problem with it - but that's not the context here is it, which is why I asked the question I did. Ngo had already used his "journalism", of which filming is merely a part, as an intelligence gathering exercise to provide information to
He provided information to everyone, as far as I can tell.
the fash
OK, you seem to have identified some fascists. Who? Name them, or show me their fascist activities. That's a good place to start.

about people disrupting their events - the consequences of which you're not only keen to avoid acknowledging but seem to go out of your way to ignore.
I'm not ignoring them. It is first important to see if you were right about them being fascist.

I assume they are clear about who they are, what they believe, and that your characterization isn't ascribing motive to them that they deny.

Otherwise, they could call you 'the fash', and both groups are equal.

The question I asked earlier is both pertinent and relevent to the context here...
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:59 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:43 pm
Mostly, it sounds like, after listening to Andy Ngo, antifa likes to obscure their identity, and dislikes having their activities filmed, or their people identified.
Identified by whom, to whom, and for what purpose?
If Ngo filming was simply a matter of providing a public record of events then it'd be pretty easy to answer that question wouldn't it? However, everything that has followed that question has involved you dodging the elephant in the room, that Ngo operates his "journalism" as a propaganda tool for white-supremecists, far-right, fascist causes.
Just because you claim certain groups should not be allowed to voice their opinions doesn't convince me.

If you silence political opposition, what do you think that leaves them? Once speech is gone, my guess is that people use the next best thing.
And before you give in to the reflex to change the subject or pretend that nobody knows how to tell a fascist from a pineapple I'd just remind you that, as you pointed out, we can understand and talk about this by looking at "the particulars of those groups".
Just say who is a fascist, and when they agree (or you define it clearly enough) we can use that example.

Image
There are photos I can find of antifa goons doing all kinds of anti-civil activities. Waving flags and holding up placards with ugly messages isn't the same.

You can't silence words with violence, without looking like a fascist.

So Andy Ngo must have been charged with a crime, right? Or is he simply free to physically attack because his politics disagree with yours?

I get that you sympathize with good people who identify as 'bashing the fash', but since who 'the fash' are is not exactly a clear fact, there is some bashing that is unwarranted.

Do you really think things are better if political opinions are silenced by masked attackers?

I like free speech, over authoritarian censorship. That means I have to find a way to live with those who choose ugly speech. You seem to have a notion that crossing the line into violence is good in some contexts, like if the journalist informs the wrong people...

Have you looked into the facebook expose from Project Veritas? It shows which direction they steer opinion. Would you dismiss the evidence because the guy who collected it was looking to damage facebook?

Antifa hasn't been good at presenting their best work. Sincerely, all I have heard about is obstructing lawful protest, physical attacks while wearing masks, and leaving a big mess.

If they really are trying to do good, where IS the good they have done? The CHOP/CHAZ ? Where media paints a story about beautiful street festivals, while business owners sue the City for not protecting them?
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:16 pm

So you're contining to act as a defender of people who are quite clear about their social and political objectives while simultaneously pretending that you don't know anything about what they stand for - and indeed, then suggest that there's no reliable way to categorise social and political ideas or even tell the difference between a fascist and somebody who opposes fascism. Why do you think that is?
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:52 pm
Of course, you won't list what makes someone 'alt-right', nor provide a list of actions which make someone 'alt-right'.

You should go back and read my previous post to disabuse yourself of the misplaced assumption that we supposedly need some "absolute, fool-proof formula for definitely identifying someone as alt-right, or a fascist, or a neo-Nazi etc", and why that kind of thinking is unhelpful. I think I should say that, in light of that, if you continue to repeat this kind of stuff after this post without engaging in "the particulars" of the extreme right then, well, the rest of us will be drawing our own conclusions about your politics - if only because we'll have nothing else to go on but your silence, avoidance and apologism of the extreme right. That said, and in a last ditch effort to raise the level of the discussion I'll let you know who and what I'm talking about when I use the term 'alt-right'. Feel free to share it and the previous post as you wish.

* * *

Where to start? Well first we have to acknowledge that the term 'alt-right' was created by a particular set of people to apply to their particular sets of ideas. [Yes, I'm going to talk about "the particulars" here]. It's definitely not a pejorative term conjured up by killjoy leftists to smear but a PR term originally and deliberately concocted by US fascist and neo-Nazi groups to obscure their actual beliefs, aims and demands. It was a response to these groups being labelled 'far-right': an attempt to propagandise a claim that a fascist and/or racist ideology is not an 'extreme' position but just another 'alternative' position, and in particular an alternative to the kind of right-leaning conservatism which operates within a broadly liberal, democratic framework.

At this point you might be tempted to quibble again about who's a fascist or a neo-Nazi etc, as you've tried to do before, but I think even you know who we're talking about when it comes to fascism - and indeed, to clarify this I've offered you definitions of fascism quite recently. Similarly you might be tempted to dismiss those definitions as merely being other people's subjective opinions - but that would be wrong because, while you may disagree with them, they nonetheless specifically address "the particulars" of certain sets of social and political ideas and their consequences.

At the same time I think it's important to be conscious of the fact that there's no single kind of fascism; that there's no absolute fool-proof formula for defining 'a fascist'; that fascism encompasses a range of ideas that are expressed differently in different local or regional contexts; that groups like the Proud Boys are not exactly the same as 09A or the Atomwaffen Division or National Action, but their commonalities place them within the same set, and; that while there's a substantial amount of alignment with the social and political ideas found in common-or-garden conservativism simply being a conservative or leaning that way doesn't in itself make you alt-right or fascist. Fascism goes farther than merely being 'on the right' of politics and the self-named 'alt-right' definitely inhabit that region of the political landscape and encompass a range of groups that coalesce around very similar sets of ideas.

If you've been paying attention you'll notice that I'm now talking about 'alt-right' in terms of fascism. That's because the people who created the term are fascists and/or neo-Nazis. 'Alt-right' has now become an international banner term and even though there's a lot of heated debate within the movement about who is and isn't deserving of the label -- with some groups refusing to identify as 'alt-right' although they would fall within the accepted notion of the term, and even some groups claiming to be 'alt-right' even when though they don't -- all alt-right groups congregates around the core conceptof "white identity" - usually a white identity that is somehow under threat from a society that generally accepts the principles of an equality of human rights for all, inclusivity, and/or the virtues of liberal democratic institutions and processes. This is not a general concept of white identity but a rather specific one, one which doesn't include white people who stand by equality for all, or white feminists, or white SJWs, or Jews, or even tolerant conservatives - who they consider akin to race traitors - let alone their well-known antagonism to ethnic and religious minorities, LGBTQ+ and trans advocates, BLM and the like.

In short then, "the particulars" of the alt-right are rooted in ideas that elevates a particular view of white identity as being superior to all who do not share that value, something which then puts them at odds with, and in direct opposition to, those who aspire to a more inclusive, tolerant, multi-cultural, pluralist, democratic society - which ultimately includes not just the majority of the population but the State itself. This creates a conundrum for the alt-right, one expressed in a series of paradoxes: the alt-right claim to be pro-democracy as long as it preferences their views and status above others, pro-State, military and police when it secures their identity and status in society, and pro-elite and capitalism when it serves their purpose, but then at the same time they're very quick to disavow all those things when their intolerant, racists, exclusionary ideals are not supported or tolerated socially or politically. Against such a background of social and political resistance to their ideals the use of political violence by the alt-right doesn't just become an option or possibility but is positively hailed as being a moral duty and even a political necessity.

Anyone who self-identifies as alt-right today has either been misled into thinking that the alt-right isn't fundamentally a term which identifies racists and fascists -- perhaps thinking it just happens to sweep up a few fascists and racists -- or they are specifically buying into a racist, fascist white group-identity and a political narrative which maintains that their kind of white people are innately superior, should therefore occupy a preferenced, privileged and rewarded status in society, and that, one way or another, society ultimately must bend to their will - or be made to do so. As I suggested earlier, before you reflexively dismiss this as mere opinion I'd remind you that we have a 100 years of history by which to to observe "the particulars" of this insipid and increasingly incipient ideology.

This is what I'm talking about when I talk about alt-right groups like The Proud Boys and their fellow travellers. As I said, if you're prepared to engage in a discussion about what the alt-right actually stand for and the consequences of their social and political demands, to talk about "the particular of a group", then perhaps we can have a discussion about political violence. Or perhaps we won't, eh?

So now I've laid out a description and my reasons for opposing the alt-right, what do you think the alt-right stand for and how might your views differ from my own?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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