Media Bias

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Cunt
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:17 am

If you want to call them that. Left-wing trolls, too. Also, the group I mentioned (broader, and less insulting)
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Re: Media Bias

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:02 am

Well, you are the expert on trolls... :tea:
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:32 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:02 am
Well, you are the expert on trolls... :tea:
So, do you also justify the violence committed by antifa against citizen journalists?

Remember, they could be trolls.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:35 pm

Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:59 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:59 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:43 pm
Mostly, it sounds like, after listening to Andy Ngo, antifa likes to obscure their identity, and dislikes having their activities filmed, or their people identified.
Identified by whom, to whom, and for what purpose?
The 'No True Scotsman Antifa', being in full play, can always be a fallback for you, but I'll do my best...

Identified by free-roaming citizen-journalists. To their viewership on social media platforms, for the purpose of reporting events, either wonderful well-organized protest or riot.
And how does that match with the links I provided - the one's where we discussed how Ngo had been using his 'journalism' to identify anti fascist protesters to neo-Nazi groups, some members of which then paid them a home visit?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:49 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:35 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:59 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:59 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:43 pm
Mostly, it sounds like, after listening to Andy Ngo, antifa likes to obscure their identity, and dislikes having their activities filmed, or their people identified.
Identified by whom, to whom, and for what purpose?
The 'No True Scotsman Antifa', being in full play, can always be a fallback for you, but I'll do my best...

Identified by free-roaming citizen-journalists. To their viewership on social media platforms, for the purpose of reporting events, either wonderful well-organized protest or riot.
And how does that match with the links I provided - the one's where we discussed how Ngo had been using his 'journalism' to identify anti fascist protesters
Let's take this first point of misunderstanding.

I think peaceful public protest includes being filmed protesting, by news media AND peaceful counter-protesters.

Do you and I disagree on this part?
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm

Protesting us is public act. If someone films that so what?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:37 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm
Protesting us is public act. If someone films that so what?
You'll have to ask JimC...
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Re: Media Bias

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:41 pm

So what...
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:51 pm

So he was attacked for filming.

Antifa might need a better PR manager. They are looking less and less like protest, and more like authoritarian unregulated enforcement of...something deniable probably.
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:31 pm

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:51 pm
So he was attacked for filming.
:pop:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:35 pm
And how does that match with the links I provided - the one's where we discussed how Ngo had been using his 'journalism' to identify anti fascist protesters to neo-Nazi groups, some members of which then paid them a home visit?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:34 pm

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:51 pm
Antifa might need a better PR manager. They are looking less and less like protest, and more like authoritarian unregulated enforcement of...something deniable probably.
:pop:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:07 pm
You're never keen to engage in discussion about what the alt-right actually stand for or the consequences of their social and political demands....
Call them counter-protesters and see how far that takes you. :tea:
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Cunt » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:39 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:31 pm
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:51 pm
So he was attacked for filming.
:pop:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:35 pm
And how does that match with the links I provided - the one's where we discussed how Ngo had been using his 'journalism' to identify anti fascist protesters to neo-Nazi groups, some members of which then paid them a home visit?
Attacked for filming, justified by later associating him with a neo-Nazi group?

Is that your view on it?
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:15 am

You'll have to show that his association with alt-right groups was subsequent to his milkshaking and not prior.

Did you ever have a 4chan account?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:05 am

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:08 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:07 pm
Cunt wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:01 pm
It did. Apologists for violence are gross to me, so must have blocked it out.

The right pretty steadily condemns violence by the alt-right. The left I've heard from leaps to apologetics instead of condemning.

Which is the way social media seems biased.
To that I'd just say 'Bollocks'. You're never keen to engage in discussion about what the alt-right actually stand for or the consequences of their social and political demands - and when challenged you usually fallback on pretending you don't know what alt-right means or who comes under, or puts themselves under, that banner, or how to tell a neo-nazi or a fascist from a run-of-the-mill conservative etc. When you're happy to talk about that maybe we can have a discussion about political violence.
If 'alt-right' can't be well defined, I am resistant to using it.

I mean, what if you deem an org alt-right, and I don't? Where to we sort that out? Do you have a list of alt-right, right, near-right and the matching lefts?
Asking the question "How do we decide who's alt-right, or a fascist, or a neo-Nazi?" is not very helpful. As asked here, it implies that it's purely a matter of subjective opinion and thus, as you say, it runs the risk of sweeping up edge cases like people whose ideas might put them on or near the boundary between 'the right' and 'the far right' or of even sweeping up those whose ideas only put them on or near the boundary between the centre (near-right) and 'the right'. Even so, it does rather depend on 'if' we can define the term 'alt-right' to begin with doesn't it?

Clearly you assume that we can't really define 'alt-right', casting it into the realms of subjective opinion, which in turns makes any definition of 'alt-right' subjective, which makes using the term subjective, unreliable and/or uninformative. Once set in motion this Merry-go-round never stops and there's no place or time to get on or off it because, seemingly, there is no absolute, fool-proof formula for definitely identifying someone as alt-right, or a fascist, or a neo-Nazi etc.

The problem with framing these issues in this way is that it immediately stops the conversation "about what the alt-right [or fascists, or neo-Nazis] actually stand for or the consequences of their social and political demands". It does this by moving the discussion onto completely different ground.

So I hope you can now see that the 'if' in...
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:08 am
If 'alt-right' can't be well defined, I am resistant to using it.
... is a pretty big 'if' - an 'if' that at best casts doubt on us ever being able to reliably identify the alt-right, fascists, or neo-Nazis and at worse disputes the very existence of social and political ideas that might fall under these kind of labels.

On some level I think you recognise that framing a discussion around a question like "How do we decide who's alt-right, or a fascist, or a neo-Nazi?" quickly makes alt-rightism, fascism, or neo-Naziism moot, because you then go on to say...
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:08 am
Or is 'alt-right' just a phrase you use to avoid the particulars of a group?
This is far more helpful I think, because it recognises that regardless of the labels people apply to ideas at least we can talk about "the particulars of a group" - which is to say that by looking at "the particulars" we can find ways to "engage in discussion about what the alt-right [or fascists, or neo-Nazis] actually stand for or the consequences of their social and political demands."

Moreover, talking about "the particulars of a group" in relation to the far-right, alt-right, fascists, and neo-Nazi's etc specifically qualifies who and what we are talking about when it comes to those kinds of labels. This just means that we can define 'alt-right' etc by looking at "the particulars of those groups" and referring to their particular sets of social and political ideas that have (or would have) particular sets of social and political consequences.

So what are "the particulars" of the alt-right, and more specifically where do you think you're right about "the particulars" and where do you think others are wrong? I'm asking you this because you seem to have enough of an idea about the particulars of the alt-right to be able to point out where others are using the term incorrectly, or misapplying it, or misrepresenting what the alt-right actually stand for.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Media Bias

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:19 am

In most cases, defining neo-Nazis from the outside using criteria that could be argued over is unnecessary. Their own words, spoken, on banners, written in communiques, books or on the web self define them with evident pride and bravado.
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