BREXIT! BREXIT! BREXIT!

[Scot Dutchy]

In any other language it is a bribe but not in toryspeak.

[Svartalf]

well, of course, tories have much more refined terms and phrases to discuss such delicate and disgusting matters.

[rainbow]

well, of course, tories have much more refined terms and phrases to discuss such delicate and disgusting matters.

A wodge of wonga, I believe?

[Forty Two]

What exactly is Labour's position on Brexit?

The membership are overwhelmingly against it - the leadership are almost entirely for it. The conflict arises from the fact that in traditional, economically impoverished, Labour heartlands the electorate bought the Brexiteers lie and voted Leave.

What lie did they buy?

That the country was being changed by uncontrolled immigration and all the usual scapegoating that goes with the fear of the in comer.

However it is lazy thinking to assume everyone who was worried about all those eastern Europeans suddenly turning up were racist xenophobes - which some would have it. Many ordinary British people could see the impact of society changing - you could not miss it - foreign languages on the street, Eastern European shops opening, pressure on public services - and felt they had not been consulted - as indeed they had not.

I think this illustrates a very common "disconnect" that different "sides" tend to have nowadays. You've pointed out a kernel of truth, so to speak, in what the bad guys say -- the foreign languages on the street, eastern European shops, pressure on public services - so folks are looking at that and saying "we shouldn't have that - you're French - this is England -- what are you doing in England?" And, the response is "Go away, English pig-dogs! I blow my nose at you! Go away or I will taunt you a second time!"

To the people espousing that position - they aren't "racist" or "scapegoating" - they're simply saying this is England/the UK, and we have a country, and like other countries, we are allowed to have a country - you can't just come here and turn it into a Englistan." To their opponents, that sounds very racist.

Who is right and who is wrong? Maybe both, to some extent. But, has a "lie" been told here, or is it a difference in value judgment made from the same basic set of facts?

I find this sort of disconnect here in the states, too. I'm not a racist or a xenophobe - I'm very pro-immigration - I'm from a family of immigrants, married to an immigrant. I don't mind folks immigrating from wherever. However, I am pro strong immigration laws, and I do not countenance illegal immigration, and I do not think there is any merit to the argument of thousands of economic migrants just showing up at the border and demanding entry (especially not when there are people with actual job skills waiting in cities all around the world for their duly filed applications to be processed, and waiting lists to be gone through). Yet, some people insist that I am an arch-conservative, right winger who hates kids and dogs.

I have to grant you, that not being steeped in the Brexit adverts adverts and published articles, I certainly do not have the in-depth coverage of the issues as you and other Britlanders would have -- but from my perspective here, I see folks on both sides being very quick to castigate the other side with insults.

I just read an article that more than 1 in 5 of both Republicans and Democrats view their opposition as "evil." https://www.axios.com/poll-democrats-an ... ce320.html Half of each party views the other party as "ignorant". Nearly 2/3 of Democrats view Republicans as "racist/sexist/bigoted." Heck 1/3 of Republicans think Democrats are "racist/sexist/bigoted." About half of each characterize the other side as "spiteful." Of each party, only 2-4% find the other side to be fair, thoughtful or kind. https://www.axios.com/poll-democrats-an ... ce320.html

Do you find a similar polarization in Brit politics?

[rainbow]

Do you find a similar polarization in Brit politics?

No they are all twats except for those that aren't.

[Svartalf]

there are some that aren't? you sure?

[rainbow]

there are some that aren't? you sure?

...not sure I can think of any off hand.
The Speaker in Commons is a twat, but reasonably funny.

[Forty Two]

Do you find a similar polarization in Brit politics?

No they are all twats except for those that aren't.

That's misogynist.

[Rum]

What exactly is Labour's position on Brexit?

The membership are overwhelmingly against it - the leadership are almost entirely for it. The conflict arises from the fact that in traditional, economically impoverished, Labour heartlands the electorate bought the Brexiteers lie and voted Leave.

What lie did they buy?

That the country was being changed by uncontrolled immigration and all the usual scapegoating that goes with the fear of the in comer.

However it is lazy thinking to assume everyone who was worried about all those eastern Europeans suddenly turning up were racist xenophobes - which some would have it. Many ordinary British people could see the impact of society changing - you could not miss it - foreign languages on the street, Eastern European shops opening, pressure on public services - and felt they had not been consulted - as indeed they had not.

I think this illustrates a very common "disconnect" that different "sides" tend to have nowadays. You've pointed out a kernel of truth, so to speak, in what the bad guys say -- the foreign languages on the street, eastern European shops, pressure on public services - so folks are looking at that and saying "we shouldn't have that - you're French - this is England -- what are you doing in England?" And, the response is "Go away, English pig-dogs! I blow my nose at you! Go away or I will taunt you a second time!"

To the people espousing that position - they aren't "racist" or "scapegoating" - they're simply saying this is England/the UK, and we have a country, and like other countries, we are allowed to have a country - you can't just come here and turn it into a Englistan." To their opponents, that sounds very racist.

Who is right and who is wrong? Maybe both, to some extent. But, has a "lie" been told here, or is it a difference in value judgment made from the same basic set of facts?

I find this sort of disconnect here in the states, too. I'm not a racist or a xenophobe - I'm very pro-immigration - I'm from a family of immigrants, married to an immigrant. I don't mind folks immigrating from wherever. However, I am pro strong immigration laws, and I do not countenance illegal immigration, and I do not think there is any merit to the argument of thousands of economic migrants just showing up at the border and demanding entry (especially not when there are people with actual job skills waiting in cities all around the world for their duly filed applications to be processed, and waiting lists to be gone through). Yet, some people insist that I am an arch-conservative, right winger who hates kids and dogs.

I have to grant you, that not being steeped in the Brexit adverts adverts and published articles, I certainly do not have the in-depth coverage of the issues as you and other Britlanders would have -- but from my perspective here, I see folks on both sides being very quick to castigate the other side with insults.

I just read an article that more than 1 in 5 of both Republicans and Democrats view their opposition as "evil." https://www.axios.com/poll-democrats-an ... ce320.html Half of each party views the other party as "ignorant". Nearly 2/3 of Democrats view Republicans as "racist/sexist/bigoted." Heck 1/3 of Republicans think Democrats are "racist/sexist/bigoted." About half of each characterize the other side as "spiteful." Of each party, only 2-4% find the other side to be fair, thoughtful or kind. https://www.axios.com/poll-democrats-an ... ce320.html

Do you find a similar polarization in Brit politics?

Not really. The polarisation is in the public debate and to some extent the media - the press anyway. The Tories make a lot of noise about immigration but actually aren’t doing very much about it. We need the cheap labour, as well as the professionals. All parties here are in realty pretty pragmatic when they stop shouting slogans and start having to live in the real world,

[Forty Two]

Yeah, the Republicans here are like that about immigration. A lot of lip-service, but no action to secure the border.

And, honestly, I don't get where all the cheap labor is. Illegals here learn quick the market rates - and you might get a few bucks off on illegals, say, cleaning your house, rather than going with a larger company, but that's because they are small companies that know how to hide the cash. They make a metric ton of money - they're not slogging away at minimum wage.

Most immigrants make much more money than natural born citizens here. They're not underpaid - they just know how to make money and they don't suffer from a cultural embarrassment about doing certain kinds of work. You get educated south Americans coming to the US, and they'll go into flooring and carpet installation, tile, patio installation, fencing, and the like, because they can make a shit-ton of money. However, when you get quotes from immigrant run businesses, they're not cheaper than those run by white Americans.

I can't find, for example, an immigrant (illegal or legal) run lawn care and maintenance company that will work for a song. They demand just as much as anyone else.

[Rum]

Not quite the same here sadly. Low paid care work (in homes for the elderly for example) employ a lot of immigrant labour and there have even been cases of illegal slavery brought against people exploiting eastern Europeans coming over in small gangs (a local manual car wash was prosecuted for example).

I suspect people who are willing to make the sort of moves and changes to try to do better for themselves are highly motivated to begin with. There are few young people here who would tackle some of the work they do let alone travel a thousand miles or more to get the chance..

At the other end of the scale our health service would not survive without doctors originally from the Indian sub-continent and elsewhere.

[Tero]

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah, the Republicans here are like that about immigration. A lot of lip-service, but no action to secure the border.

US Republicans and UK Brexitarians are ideological bed-fellows. Constantly blowing on the dog whistle and then blaming everyone else when the barking starts.

[rainbow]

there are some that aren't? you sure?

...not sure I can think of any off hand.
The Speaker in Commons is a twat, but reasonably funny.

Theresa May looked set to seek a long extension to the U.K.’s European Union membership after the House of Commons speaker torpedoed her plan to win Parliamentary approval for her deal to leave the bloc.

[Rum]

there are some that aren't? you sure?

...not sure I can think of any off hand.
The Speaker in Commons is a twat, but reasonably funny.

Theresa May looked set to seek a long extension to the U.K.’s European Union membership after the House of Commons speaker torpedoed her plan to win Parliamentary approval for her deal to leave the bloc.

Bercow, the Speaker (more or less the chair when Parliament meets) cited a 400 year old ruling with which he refused May permission to bring the same legislation forward for a third time for a vote. It is the best chance yet of getting her deal through it is (was) thought.

To say he is being treated like the devil’s spawn in the media here is underplaying it.