Republicans: continued

[Sean Hayden]

I don't want to sanction Russia, do you have a good reason for wanting that? Don't say because of their behavior around the world, I'll puke.

[pErvinalia]

Because of their behaviour around the world.

[Sean Hayden]

It doesn't matter.

[Sean Hayden]

Did you guys know that some of our sanctions against Russia are to help stop individuals profiting from a corrupt system? That's right, stopping corruption is what we're all about, and we've declared the Russian government utterly corrupt.

That we often say the same of our own is irrelevant. Democrats apparently don't actually believe that.

Other sanctions target Russia's blatant disregard for international standards. --you feeling queasy yet. well don't, you're an adult--

Still other reasons include stopping Russia's aggression and its willingness to work with the evils of the world like North Korea.

Is it even worth looking into this further? I mean, if I'm going to be okay with it then this just amounts to tone policing, to asking the US to be honest. But if I'm going to have a problem with it, then it means at the very least demanding accountability for our own failings.

[Seabass]

Did you guys know that some of our sanctions against Russia are to help stop individuals profiting from a corrupt system? That's right, stopping corruption is what we're all about, and we've declared the Russian government utterly corrupt.

That we often say the same of our own is irrelevant. Democrats apparently don't actually believe that.

Other sanctions target Russia's blatant disregard for international standards. --you feeling queasy yet. well don't, you're an adult--

Still other reasons include stopping Russia's aggression and its willingness to work with the evils of the world like North Korea.

Is it even worth looking into this further? I mean, if I'm going to be okay with it then this just amounts to tone policing, to asking the US to be honest. But if I'm going to have a problem with it, then it means at the very least demanding accountability for our own failings.

Well, maybe you're ok with the Republicans inviting a bunch of bond villain-esque Russian interlopers to meddle in our politics, but I'm not. America's misdeeds and the accountability thereof are a separate matter entirely.

[Sean Hayden]

No they're not. If your government is unaccountable, corrupt, and utterly dishonest, you've got no business taking their word regarding either the risk presented by others, or their proposed solutions.

[Seabass]

[Brian Peacock]

I tend to agree with Sean on the Russian sanctions issue. Sure they do nasty shit, but wielding the might of the American economy against them is an increasingly futile gesture in a globalised, de-regulated economic environment. The US used to hold the high ground because of its economic dominance and its place as the figurehead of resistence to the Red Menace. Russia have noticed that the standards and rules have changed and gleefully game the system like any other economic base, yet the US still hankers after the day when it was the guy with the biggest stick in the international playground. US sanctions on their own will achieve very little, and yet the US's ability to broker international agreement and consensus on international standards and behaviour has been severely limited by its own reluctance to play by the rules it advocates. It's time for all nations to put this economic and military dick-waving aside and focus on the real problems facing the world - like the environment and the colonisation of democracy by the vested interests of neo-liberal Capitalism.

[Seabass]

I tend to agree with Sean on the Russian sanctions issue. Sure they do nasty shit, but wielding the might of the American economy against them is an increasingly futile gesture in a globalised, de-regulated economic environment. The US used to hold the high ground because of its economic dominance and its place as the figurehead of resistence to the Red Menace. Russia have noticed that the standards and rules have changed and gleefully game the system like any other economic base, yet the US still hankers after the day when it was the guy with the biggest stick in the international playground. US sanctions on their own will achieve very little, and yet the US's ability to broker international agreement and consensus on international standards and behaviour has been severely limited by its own reluctance to play by the rules it advocates. It's time for all nations to put this economic and military dick-waving aside and focus on the real problems facing the world - like the environment and the colonisation of democracy by the vested interests of neo-liberal Capitalism.

Did you read the articles? Nevermind the sanctions. It's the quid pro quo and the leverage that concern me.

[Brian Peacock]

Mr McConnell is scum, pure and simple, and the investment of Russian dirty money in American jobs is concerning, but as I think Sean hinted the Russians are just playing the game by the US's rules. Without internation consensus US sanctions are mostly a domestic political tool and this administration has made it quite clear that it doesn't do international consensus.

[JimC]

Brian, I quite agree with you about the sanctions issue, in particular the rather arrogant US insistence on applying them being "my way or the highway", and that their disdain for international consensus is basically stupid.

However, the actions of Russia in many areas, both internally and internationally should also be viewed with great concern. I think they've gone beyond simply joining the club of capitalist economic manipulation. If sections of the US political scene are content to let Russian manipulation of their political system occur, in the hope that it will damage their opponents, then they have acted against their nation's long term interests, and have aided and abetted a nation state that wishes their country ill...

[Brian Peacock]

I don't disagree, but I would point out again that in a globalised world international agreement and consensus is the only effective means of addressing these matters, and while the US, or any nation, thinks that their national interest outweighs international agreements and conventions then impotent dick-waving and corruption are going to remain a feature of the game.

[JimC]

I don't disagree, but I would point out again that in a globalised world international agreement and consensus is the only effective means of addressing these matters, and while the US, or any nation, thinks that their national interest outweighs international agreements and conventions then impotent dick-waving and corruption are going to remain a feature of the game.

In terms of sanctions and other international concerns I fully agree that international consensus is vital. However, in the particular example of Russian penetration of the US political system, then it's the US itself that needs to wake up and sort out the issue.

[Sean Hayden]

All I see is propaganda, and then some Russian money helping Americans. In this case the propaganda is from Democrats smearing Republicans by purposefully ignoring what all has been done aside from sanctions to address Russian influence.

Now the sanctions aren't even the issue, despite their lifting supposedly being what the Russians bought!

We are in desperate need of a reboot and scraping of the status quo.

[Seabass]

Not all sanctions are created equal. I tend to oppose sanctions, for example, like those against Iran that only end up hurting poor people. But I've got no problem with targeted sanctions against Oleg Deripaska for fucking with our elections.

But all of this is beside the point in this instance. The concern here is that Moscow Mitch and Oleg Deripaska appear to be scratching each others backs immediately after Deripaska played a role in the attack on our elections.

Those sanctions had bipartisan support. Mitch killed them. Regardless of whether or not any of us feel that those sanctions were appropriate, sanctions are what most of congress decided was the correct response to Deripaska's actions. Mitch went against that though, and next thing we know, Deripaska is dumping money into Kentucky and GOP campaign coffers.

This all looks shady as fuck, and honestly I'm surprised that it's the sanctions that two of you have chosen to focus on. Look, Mitch didn't kill the sanctions out of some principled stand against misuse of sanctions. Sanctions or no sanctions, I don't want Oleg Deripaska and Putin to have leverage on our lawmakers.