Republicans: continued

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:13 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:53 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:48 pm
And in any case, it can be a healthcare equivalent of a mixed economy - there would still be private hospitals and doctors for those prepared to pay extra, but with good, standard health care available for all. I'm not saying our model is by any means perfect, but at least it's not Third World care for the poor...
We have good, standard healthcare available for all, and we had that before Obamacare inflated all the prices.

It's not third world care for the poor here either, and wasn't 10 years ago. That was a purposeful lie.
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rank ... ountry.jsp

1 Taiwan 85.34 156.78
2 South Korea 84.34 154.61
3 Japan 82.21 150.47
4 Belgium 80.93 148.33
5 Denmark 79.85 147.28
6 Thailand 79.21 144.48
7 Austria 79.20 145.36
8 Netherlands 79.13 144.72
9 France 78.71 144.13
10 Spain 77.87 143.48
11 Australia 75.78 137.83
12 Norway 75.03 137.22
13 Finland 74.97 136.30
14 Germany 74.88 136.59
15 Czech Republic 74.63 137.11
16 Israel 74.16 135.94
17 United Kingdom 74.12 135.80
18 Ecuador 73.91 133.52
19 Sri Lanka 73.62 132.94
20 Qatar 72.86 132.35
21 New Zealand 72.62 131.64
22 Estonia 72.47 132.78
23 Switzerland 72.24 135.92
24 Argentina 70.53 128.19
25 Canada 70.07 128.56
26 United Arab Emirates 69.90 128.62
27 Turkey 69.74 125.31
28 Mexico 69.64 124.73
29 Portugal 69.54 126.00
30 Singapore 69.25 128.90
31 Sweden 68.97 126.24
32 United States 68.89 126.87
33 India 68.04

Great job in just pipping India... :tup:
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:28 pm

:lol:
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:29 pm

(those rankings are put together by marxists, by the way)
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:33 pm

JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:13 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:53 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:48 pm
And in any case, it can be a healthcare equivalent of a mixed economy - there would still be private hospitals and doctors for those prepared to pay extra, but with good, standard health care available for all. I'm not saying our model is by any means perfect, but at least it's not Third World care for the poor...
We have good, standard healthcare available for all, and we had that before Obamacare inflated all the prices.

It's not third world care for the poor here either, and wasn't 10 years ago. That was a purposeful lie.
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rank ... ountry.jsp

1 Taiwan 85.34 156.78
2 South Korea 84.34 154.61
3 Japan 82.21 150.47
4 Belgium 80.93 148.33
5 Denmark 79.85 147.28
6 Thailand 79.21 144.48
7 Austria 79.20 145.36
8 Netherlands 79.13 144.72
9 France 78.71 144.13
10 Spain 77.87 143.48
11 Australia 75.78 137.83
12 Norway 75.03 137.22
13 Finland 74.97 136.30
14 Germany 74.88 136.59
15 Czech Republic 74.63 137.11
16 Israel 74.16 135.94
17 United Kingdom 74.12 135.80
18 Ecuador 73.91 133.52
19 Sri Lanka 73.62 132.94
20 Qatar 72.86 132.35
21 New Zealand 72.62 131.64
22 Estonia 72.47 132.78
23 Switzerland 72.24 135.92
24 Argentina 70.53 128.19
25 Canada 70.07 128.56
26 United Arab Emirates 69.90 128.62
27 Turkey 69.74 125.31
28 Mexico 69.64 124.73
29 Portugal 69.54 126.00
30 Singapore 69.25 128.90
31 Sweden 68.97 126.24
32 United States 68.89 126.87
33 India 68.04

Great job in just pipping India... :tup:

That's not a ranking of the quality of health care. Look at the methodology. "This section is based on surveys from visitors of this website."

This isn't even the WHO index, the methodology of which was weighted in favor of socialized medicine per se, and had other non-health care factors entered.

The notion that Ecuador, Argentina and Mexico have better health care than the US is absurd. Portugal? LOL. Thailand ranked 6th in the world?

Where is Italy, Greece, Hungary, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Latvia, Poland, Iceland, Slovenia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania? I mean the European countries this index ranks ahead of the US are Sweden (by .02 and .63 respectively), Portugal, Estonia, France, Finland, Austria, UK, Czech Republic? Does Sweden have basically the same quality health care as the US? LOL. If so, isn't the US doing pretty good?

The rest of Europe is apparently below the US -- 6 western European countries, and 2 eastern European countries beat us - the rest of Europe - even by this survey - must rank below the US. Europe has 50 countries.

Good job, 42 European countries - not even pipping India. Or, perhaps the methodology and criteria of this survey isn't exactly reliable as a rank of the quality of health care or a health care system?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm

You're flailing about in that big Egyptian river, 42...
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:45 pm

The Bloomberg annual study, Most Efficient Health Care 2014, ranked no less than 51 countries. Asia is the big winner of these rankings.

1. Singapore
2. Hong Kong
3. Italy
4. Japan
5. South Korea
6. Australia
7. Israel
8. France
9. United Arab Emirates
10. United Kingdom

https://fr.april-international.com/en/h ... re-systems
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 pm

And really, what it's all about is the level of healthcare relative to the wealth of a country and it's technological development. On such counts, the US healthcare system should be way ahead of the rest of the world. The reality is that it is mediocre at best, in terms of its ability to efficiently and affordably look after all citizens, irrespective of their wealth or status. The irrational fear of anything that might smack of big government or socialism is the reason why the US will languish in this area indefinitely. They just don't get that, in the modern world, the job of governments is to look after the people overall, rather than corporations and abstract political ideas.
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:30 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm
You're flailing about in that big Egyptian river, 42...
Nope. There is just a real misconception of how the US operates and operated before the Obamacare debacle. Lots of misinformation spread about it. That should be obvious when some tried to sell Cuba's health care system as superior to the United States. For fuck's sake.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:34 pm

U.S. Has the Worst Health Care? Not By a Long Shot


https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes ... 0235c12b38

Take infant mortality rates, where the United States typically places far down the list behind France, Greece, Italy, Hungary, even Cuba.

This comparison is notoriously unreliable, because countries either use different definitions of a live birth -- or fudge their numbers.

The United States, for example, counts every live birth in its infant mortality statistics. But France only includes babies born after 22 weeks of gestation. In Poland, a baby has to weigh more than 1 pound, 2 ounces to count as a live birth.


The World Health Organization notes that it's common practice in several countries, including Belgium, France, and Spain, "to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth."
A far more meaningful comparison of international health systems would take stock of how people afflicted with diseases such as cancer fare in different countries. And on this measure, there's no question the United States stands above the rest.

Five-year survival rates for breast cancer are higher in the United States than England, Denmark, Germany, and Spain, according to the American Cancer Society.

In the United States, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 99.1 percent. In Denmark it's 47.7 percent.

For kidney cancer patients, the survival rate here is 68.4 percent. It's just 45.6 percent in England -- which the Commonwealth Fund ranked as the number-one healthcare system in the world.
...

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:44 pm

Health care should be looked at for its overall performance, not just by cherry picking a handful of special cases. Look, I've no doubt that medical technology and research is very high end in the US, which will influence performance in specialised areas of cancer treatment. But all the stats show that, considering the overall health of your total population, and their access to affordable services, you guys are mediocre at best...
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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:51 pm

It's only by picking cases that you get a picture of overall performance. Infant mortality, access to healthcare, and results sound like a few good ones to me.

The article acknowledges our big failing: it's expensive! But I guess it's better to be broke and alive than middle class and dead.

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:53 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 pm
And really, what it's all about is the level of healthcare relative to the wealth of a country and it's technological development. On such counts, the US healthcare system should be way ahead of the rest of the world. The reality is that it is mediocre at best,
You see, that's a bald faced lie. It is not true that it's "mediocre at best." And, no, it's not about "relative to the wealth of the country" -- that's stupid - you don't say Malawi has great health care because they are just about the poorest country. By your logic, Luxembourg would have shit healthcare.

JimC wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 pm

in terms of its ability to efficiently and affordably look after all citizens, irrespective of their wealth or status. The irrational fear of anything that might smack of big government or socialism is the reason why the US will languish in this area indefinitely. They just don't get that, in the modern world, the job of governments is to look after the people overall, rather than corporations and abstract political ideas.
The misconception is that the US did not look after all citizens, irrespective of wealth or status. The US does not "languish" - American hospitals and medical facilities are among the top in the world. And everyone has access to them now ,and everyone had access to them before. What you don't get is that you are painfully misinformed about what goes on here.
Why Is U.S. Health Care So Expensive? Some of the Reasons You’ve Heard Turn Out to Be Myths
In a new, detailed international comparison, the United States looks a lot more like its peers than researchers expected.
Maybe the United States health care system isn’t that bizarre after all.

Compared with peer nations, the United States sends people to the hospital less often, it has a smaller share of specialist physicians, and it gives people about the same number of hospitalizations and doctors’ visits, according to a new study. The quality of health care looks pretty good, it finds, while its spending on social services outside of health care, like housing and education, looked fairly typical.

If you’ve been listening to many of the common narratives that seek to explain the high costs of America’s health system and the nation’s relatively low life expectancy, those results might surprise you. Analysts are fond of describing the system as wasteful, with too many patients getting too many services, driven by too many specialist doctors and too few social supports.

But a large and comprehensive review in The Journal of the American Medical Association punctures a lot of those pat explanations. The paper, conducted by a research team led by Ashish Jha, compiled detailed data from the health care systems of the United States and 10 other rich developed nations, and tried to test those hypotheses. The group included nations with single-payer health care systems, like Britain and Canada, and countries with competitive private insurance markets, like Switzerland and the Netherlands.

Dr. Jha, the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, said he came to the project with a sense of the conventional wisdom about how the United States differed from its peers. But, after assembling the data from the countries’ health ministries, he changed his mind about a number of key assumptions.

But the research, he said, didn’t match his expectations. “I’ve been looking at other countries and seeing there’s a lot of fee-for-service in other countries, and other countries are struggling with overutilization.”

When it came to many of the measures of health system function, the United States was in the middle of the pack, not an outlier, as Dr. Jha had expected. Many analysts have called for the country to shift its physician training away from specialty care and toward more primary care medicine, for example. But the study found that 43 percent of U.S. doctors practice primary care medicine, about typical for the group.

It’s often argued that patients in the United States use too much medical care. But the country was below average on measures of how often patients went to the doctor or hospital. The nation did rank near the top in its use of certain medical services, including expensive imaging tests and specific surgical procedures, like knee replacements and C-sections.

“I don’t think there’s any of these countries where if you went and talked to them individually, they wouldn’t say they’re having a health care cost crisis,” he said. “They’re all struggling with paying for new technology and the cost of the system.”

The data did not suggest that any country had a plug-and-play policy template for devising a lower-cost, high-performing system. The systems tended to perform better than the United States on some measures and worse on others, with lots of idiosyncrasies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/upsh ... world.html
It’s one of the most oft-repeated justifications for socialized medicine: Americans spend more money than other developed countries on health care, but don’t live as long. If we would just hop on the European health-care bandwagon, we’d live longer and healthier lives. The only problem is it’s not true.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... b15572b987



One example - Image

There is a major political movement to push socialized medicine. The notion that the US has worse health care than third world nations is out-and-out bullshit. The fact that people believe it is just successful propaganda.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:58 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:34 pm
U.S. Has the Worst Health Care? Not By a Long Shot


https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes ... 0235c12b38

Take infant mortality rates, where the United States typically places far down the list behind France, Greece, Italy, Hungary, even Cuba.

This comparison is notoriously unreliable, because countries either use different definitions of a live birth -- or fudge their numbers.

The United States, for example, counts every live birth in its infant mortality statistics. But France only includes babies born after 22 weeks of gestation. In Poland, a baby has to weigh more than 1 pound, 2 ounces to count as a live birth.


The World Health Organization notes that it's common practice in several countries, including Belgium, France, and Spain, "to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth."
A far more meaningful comparison of international health systems would take stock of how people afflicted with diseases such as cancer fare in different countries. And on this measure, there's no question the United States stands above the rest.

Five-year survival rates for breast cancer are higher in the United States than England, Denmark, Germany, and Spain, according to the American Cancer Society.

In the United States, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 99.1 percent. In Denmark it's 47.7 percent.

For kidney cancer patients, the survival rate here is 68.4 percent. It's just 45.6 percent in England -- which the Commonwealth Fund ranked as the number-one healthcare system in the world.
...
Thank you.

Of course the US doesn't have the worst health care. I mean, people love to cast aspersions at the US - any chance they get - Europeans, especially. But, we are at a point in society where the media can convince people that people in the US live worse than most of the rest of the world. It's all that crappy capitalism! So evil! If we would only adopt more socialist policies, then not only would we generously take care of everyone who is poor, but our economy would finally take off, too! That pesky stat that the US just ended about 100 years of leading the world in pretty much every category of economics measurable doesn't mean anything. The US is oppressive, authoritarian, hateful, mean, greedy, stupid and poor, and we have terrible bread, worse cheese, and not a good beer to be found anywhere. The only thing we have is an excess of guns, with which we have daily meet-ups at high noon in the town square, hiding behind the dead from the local substandard hospitals while we shoot.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:14 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:51 pm
It's only by picking cases that you get a picture of overall performance. Infant mortality, access to healthcare, and results sound like a few good ones to me.

The article acknowledges our big failing: it's expensive! But I guess it's better to be broke and alive than middle class and dead.
And things like infant mortality are deceptive, too - where countries don't define "live birth" the same way, and where countries don't use as much medical resources trying to save damaged newborns and premature births....

Y
Yet it’s not that simple. Infant and neonatal mortality rates are complex, multifactorial end-points that oversimplify heterogeneous inputs, many of which have no relation to health care at all. Moreover, these statistics gleaned from the widely varied countries of the world are plagued by inconsistencies, problematic definitions, and gross inaccuracies, all of which disadvantage the ranking of the U.S., where accuracy is paramount. Even though Oestergaard’s WHO report lists several “challenges and limitations” in comparing neonatal mortality rates, sensationalized headlines continue to rage about the supposedly poor showing of the United States. The following are a few of the difficulties:

#ad#Underreporting and unreliability of infant-mortality data from other countries undermine any comparisons with the United States. In a 2008 study, Joy Lawn estimated that a full three-fourths of the world’s neonatal deaths are counted only through highly unreliable five-yearly retrospective household surveys, instead of being reported at the time by hospitals and health-care professionals, as in the United States. Moreover, the most premature babies — those with the highest likelihood of dying — are the least likely to be recorded in infant and neonatal mortality statistics in other countries. Compounding that difficulty, in other countries the underreporting is greatest for deaths that occur very soon after birth. Since the earliest deaths make up 75 percent of all neonatal deaths, underreporting by other countries — often misclassifying what were really live births as fetal demise (stillbirths) — would falsely exclude most neonatal deaths. Any assumption that the practice of underreporting is confined to less-developed nations is incorrect. In fact, a number of published peer-reviewed studies show that underreporting of early neonatal deaths has varied between 10 percent and 30 percent in highly developed Western European and Asian countries.

Gross differences in the fundamental definition of “live birth” invalidate comparisons of early neonatal death rates. The United States strictly adheres to the WHO definition of live birth (any infant “irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which . . . breathes or shows any other evidence of life . . . whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”) and uses a strictly implemented linked birth and infant-death data set. On the contrary, many other nations, including highly developed countries in Western Europe, use far less strict definitions, all of which underreport the live births of more fragile infants who soon die. As a consequence, they falsely report more favorable neonatal- and infant-mortality rates.

A 2006 report from WHO stated that “among developed countries, mortality rates may reflect differences in the definitions used for reporting births, such as cut-offs for registering live births and birth weight.” The Bulletin of WHO noted that “it has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth”; those who did not survive were “completely ignored for registration purposes.” Since the U.S. counts as live births all babies who show “any evidence of life,” even the most premature and the smallest — the very babies who account for the majority of neonatal deaths — it necessarily has a higher neonatal-mortality rate than countries that do not.

A separate WHO Bulletin in 2008 noted that registration of stillbirths, live births, and neonatal deaths is done differently in countries where abortion is legal compared with countries where abortion is uncommon or illegal, and these discrepancies generate substantial differences in infant-mortality rates. Jan Richardus showed that the perinatal mortality rate “can vary by 50% depending on which definition is used,” and Wilco Graafmans reported that terminology differences alone among Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. — highly developed countries with substantially different infant-mortality rates — caused rates to vary by 14 to 40 percent, and generated a false reduction in reported infant-mortality rates of up to 17 percent. These differences, coupled with the fact that the U.S. medical system is far more aggressive about resuscitating very premature infants, mean that very premature infants are even more likely to be categorized as live births in the U.S., even though they have only a small chance of surviving. Considering that, even in the U.S., roughly half of all infant mortality occurs in the first 24 hours, the single factor of omitting very early deaths in many European nations generates their falsely superior neonatal-mortality rates.

An additional major reason for the high infant-mortality rate of the United States is its high percentage of preterm births, relative to the other developed countries. Neonatal deaths are mainly associated with prematurity and low birth weight. Therefore the fact that the percentage of preterm births in the U.S. is far higher than that in all other OECD countries — 65 percent higher than in Britain, and more than double the rate in Ireland, Finland, and Greece — further undermines the validity of neonatal-mortality comparisons. Whether this high percentage arises from more aggressive in vitro fertilization, creating multiple-gestation pregnancies, from risky behaviors among pregnant women, or from other factors unrelated to the quality of medical care, the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics has concluded that “the primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births.” (M. F. MacDorman and T. J. Matthews, 2007)
Virtually every national and international agency involved in statistical assessments of health status, health care, and economic development uses the infant-mortality rate — the number of infants per 1,000 live births who die before reaching the age of one — as a fundamental indicator. America’s high infant-mortality rate has been repeatedly put forth as evidence “proving” the substandard performance of the U.S. health-care system. And now a new report focusing specifically on neonatal mortality (mortality rates in the first four weeks of life) from Mikkel Oestergaard and the World Health Organization (WHO) is being cited as an indictment of U.S. health care, with headlines proclaiming that the U.S. ranks 41st in the world on this measure.

Yet it’s not that simple. Infant and neonatal mortality rates are complex, multifactorial end-points that oversimplify heterogeneous inputs, many of which have no relation to health care at all. Moreover, these statistics gleaned from the widely varied countries of the world are plagued by inconsistencies, problematic definitions, and gross inaccuracies, all of which disadvantage the ranking of the U.S., where accuracy is paramount. Even though Oestergaard’s WHO report lists several “challenges and limitations” in comparing neonatal mortality rates, sensationalized headlines continue to rage about the supposedly poor showing of the United States. The following are a few of the difficulties:

#ad#Underreporting and unreliability of infant-mortality data from other countries undermine any comparisons with the United States. In a 2008 study, Joy Lawn estimated that a full three-fourths of the world’s neonatal deaths are counted only through highly unreliable five-yearly retrospective household surveys, instead of being reported at the time by hospitals and health-care professionals, as in the United States. Moreover, the most premature babies — those with the highest likelihood of dying — are the least likely to be recorded in infant and neonatal mortality statistics in other countries. Compounding that difficulty, in other countries the underreporting is greatest for deaths that occur very soon after birth. Since the earliest deaths make up 75 percent of all neonatal deaths, underreporting by other countries — often misclassifying what were really live births as fetal demise (stillbirths) — would falsely exclude most neonatal deaths. Any assumption that the practice of underreporting is confined to less-developed nations is incorrect. In fact, a number of published peer-reviewed studies show that underreporting of early neonatal deaths has varied between 10 percent and 30 percent in highly developed Western European and Asian countries.

Gross differences in the fundamental definition of “live birth” invalidate comparisons of early neonatal death rates. The United States strictly adheres to the WHO definition of live birth (any infant “irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which . . . breathes or shows any other evidence of life . . . whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”) and uses a strictly implemented linked birth and infant-death data set. On the contrary, many other nations, including highly developed countries in Western Europe, use far less strict definitions, all of which underreport the live births of more fragile infants who soon die. As a consequence, they falsely report more favorable neonatal- and infant-mortality rates.

A 2006 report from WHO stated that “among developed countries, mortality rates may reflect differences in the definitions used for reporting births, such as cut-offs for registering live births and birth weight.” The Bulletin of WHO noted that “it has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth”; those who did not survive were “completely ignored for registration purposes.” Since the U.S. counts as live births all babies who show “any evidence of life,” even the most premature and the smallest — the very babies who account for the majority of neonatal deaths — it necessarily has a higher neonatal-mortality rate than countries that do not.

A separate WHO Bulletin in 2008 noted that registration of stillbirths, live births, and neonatal deaths is done differently in countries where abortion is legal compared with countries where abortion is uncommon or illegal, and these discrepancies generate substantial differences in infant-mortality rates. Jan Richardus showed that the perinatal mortality rate “can vary by 50% depending on which definition is used,” and Wilco Graafmans reported that terminology differences alone among Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. — highly developed countries with substantially different infant-mortality rates — caused rates to vary by 14 to 40 percent, and generated a false reduction in reported infant-mortality rates of up to 17 percent. These differences, coupled with the fact that the U.S. medical system is far more aggressive about resuscitating very premature infants, mean that very premature infants are even more likely to be categorized as live births in the U.S., even though they have only a small chance of surviving. Considering that, even in the U.S., roughly half of all infant mortality occurs in the first 24 hours, the single factor of omitting very early deaths in many European nations generates their falsely superior neonatal-mortality rates.

An additional major reason for the high infant-mortality rate of the United States is its high percentage of preterm births, relative to the other developed countries. Neonatal deaths are mainly associated with prematurity and low birth weight. Therefore the fact that the percentage of preterm births in the U.S. is far higher than that in all other OECD countries — 65 percent higher than in Britain, and more than double the rate in Ireland, Finland, and Greece — further undermines the validity of neonatal-mortality comparisons. Whether this high percentage arises from more aggressive in vitro fertilization, creating multiple-gestation pregnancies, from risky behaviors among pregnant women, or from other factors unrelated to the quality of medical care, the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics has concluded that “the primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births.” (M. F. MacDorman and T. J. Matthews, 2007)
#ad#Throughout the developed world, and regardless of the health-care system, infant-mortality rates are far worse among minority populations, and the U.S. has much more diversity of race and ethnicity than any other developed nation. Whether in wholly government-run health-care systems — like Canada’s, or the U.K.’s NHS — or in the mixed U.S. system, racial and ethnic minorities have higher infant-mortality rates, roughly double those of the majority. While these disparities are among the most perplexing problems in society, they are extremely complex, identifiable even when other risk factors (including maternal age, marital status, and education) are taken into account, and often entirely separate from health-care quality. Population heterogeneity specifically distorts mortality rates in the U.S., because the racial-ethnic heterogeneity of the U.S. is far higher, four to eight times that found in Western European nations like Sweden, Norway, France and the UK.

The fact is that for decades, the U.S. has shown superior infant-mortality rates using official National Center for Health Statistics and European Perinatal Health Report data — in fact, the best in the world outside of Sweden and Norway, even without correcting for any of the population and risk-factor differences deleterious to the U.S. — for premature and low-birth-weight babies, the newborns who actually need medical care and who are at highest risk of dying.

In summary, the analysis and subsequent comparison of neonatal- and infant-mortality rates have been filled with inconsistencies and pitfalls, problematic definitions, and inaccuracies. Even the use of the most fundamental term, “live births,” greatly distorts infant-mortality rates, because often the infants who die the soonest after birth are not counted as live births outside the United States. In the end, these comparisons reflect deviations in fundamental terminology, reporting accuracy, data sources, populations, and cultural-medical practices — all of which specifically disadvantage the U.S. in international rankings. And unbeknownst to organizations bent on painting a picture of inferior health care in the U.S., the peer-reviewed literature and even the WHO’s own statements agree.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/09/ ... t-w-atlas/
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Republicans: continued

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:14 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:51 pm
It's only by picking cases that you get a picture of overall performance. Infant mortality, access to healthcare, and results sound like a few good ones to me.

The article acknowledges our big failing: it's expensive! But I guess it's better to be broke and alive than middle class and dead.
And things like infant mortality are deceptive, too - where countries don't define "live birth" the same way, and where countries don't use as much medical resources trying to save damaged newborns and premature births....

Y
Yet it’s not that simple. Infant and neonatal mortality rates are complex, multifactorial end-points that oversimplify heterogeneous inputs, many of which have no relation to health care at all. Moreover, these statistics gleaned from the widely varied countries of the world are plagued by inconsistencies, problematic definitions, and gross inaccuracies, all of which disadvantage the ranking of the U.S., where accuracy is paramount. Even though Oestergaard’s WHO report lists several “challenges and limitations” in comparing neonatal mortality rates, sensationalized headlines continue to rage about the supposedly poor showing of the United States. The following are a few of the difficulties:

#ad#Underreporting and unreliability of infant-mortality data from other countries undermine any comparisons with the United States. In a 2008 study, Joy Lawn estimated that a full three-fourths of the world’s neonatal deaths are counted only through highly unreliable five-yearly retrospective household surveys, instead of being reported at the time by hospitals and health-care professionals, as in the United States. Moreover, the most premature babies — those with the highest likelihood of dying — are the least likely to be recorded in infant and neonatal mortality statistics in other countries. Compounding that difficulty, in other countries the underreporting is greatest for deaths that occur very soon after birth. Since the earliest deaths make up 75 percent of all neonatal deaths, underreporting by other countries — often misclassifying what were really live births as fetal demise (stillbirths) — would falsely exclude most neonatal deaths. Any assumption that the practice of underreporting is confined to less-developed nations is incorrect. In fact, a number of published peer-reviewed studies show that underreporting of early neonatal deaths has varied between 10 percent and 30 percent in highly developed Western European and Asian countries.

Gross differences in the fundamental definition of “live birth” invalidate comparisons of early neonatal death rates. The United States strictly adheres to the WHO definition of live birth (any infant “irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which . . . breathes or shows any other evidence of life . . . whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”) and uses a strictly implemented linked birth and infant-death data set. On the contrary, many other nations, including highly developed countries in Western Europe, use far less strict definitions, all of which underreport the live births of more fragile infants who soon die. As a consequence, they falsely report more favorable neonatal- and infant-mortality rates.

A 2006 report from WHO stated that “among developed countries, mortality rates may reflect differences in the definitions used for reporting births, such as cut-offs for registering live births and birth weight.” The Bulletin of WHO noted that “it has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth”; those who did not survive were “completely ignored for registration purposes.” Since the U.S. counts as live births all babies who show “any evidence of life,” even the most premature and the smallest — the very babies who account for the majority of neonatal deaths — it necessarily has a higher neonatal-mortality rate than countries that do not.

A separate WHO Bulletin in 2008 noted that registration of stillbirths, live births, and neonatal deaths is done differently in countries where abortion is legal compared with countries where abortion is uncommon or illegal, and these discrepancies generate substantial differences in infant-mortality rates. Jan Richardus showed that the perinatal mortality rate “can vary by 50% depending on which definition is used,” and Wilco Graafmans reported that terminology differences alone among Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. — highly developed countries with substantially different infant-mortality rates — caused rates to vary by 14 to 40 percent, and generated a false reduction in reported infant-mortality rates of up to 17 percent. These differences, coupled with the fact that the U.S. medical system is far more aggressive about resuscitating very premature infants, mean that very premature infants are even more likely to be categorized as live births in the U.S., even though they have only a small chance of surviving. Considering that, even in the U.S., roughly half of all infant mortality occurs in the first 24 hours, the single factor of omitting very early deaths in many European nations generates their falsely superior neonatal-mortality rates.

An additional major reason for the high infant-mortality rate of the United States is its high percentage of preterm births, relative to the other developed countries. Neonatal deaths are mainly associated with prematurity and low birth weight. Therefore the fact that the percentage of preterm births in the U.S. is far higher than that in all other OECD countries — 65 percent higher than in Britain, and more than double the rate in Ireland, Finland, and Greece — further undermines the validity of neonatal-mortality comparisons. Whether this high percentage arises from more aggressive in vitro fertilization, creating multiple-gestation pregnancies, from risky behaviors among pregnant women, or from other factors unrelated to the quality of medical care, the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics has concluded that “the primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births.” (M. F. MacDorman and T. J. Matthews, 2007)
Virtually every national and international agency involved in statistical assessments of health status, health care, and economic development uses the infant-mortality rate — the number of infants per 1,000 live births who die before reaching the age of one — as a fundamental indicator. America’s high infant-mortality rate has been repeatedly put forth as evidence “proving” the substandard performance of the U.S. health-care system. And now a new report focusing specifically on neonatal mortality (mortality rates in the first four weeks of life) from Mikkel Oestergaard and the World Health Organization (WHO) is being cited as an indictment of U.S. health care, with headlines proclaiming that the U.S. ranks 41st in the world on this measure.

Yet it’s not that simple. Infant and neonatal mortality rates are complex, multifactorial end-points that oversimplify heterogeneous inputs, many of which have no relation to health care at all. Moreover, these statistics gleaned from the widely varied countries of the world are plagued by inconsistencies, problematic definitions, and gross inaccuracies, all of which disadvantage the ranking of the U.S., where accuracy is paramount. Even though Oestergaard’s WHO report lists several “challenges and limitations” in comparing neonatal mortality rates, sensationalized headlines continue to rage about the supposedly poor showing of the United States. The following are a few of the difficulties:

#ad#Underreporting and unreliability of infant-mortality data from other countries undermine any comparisons with the United States. In a 2008 study, Joy Lawn estimated that a full three-fourths of the world’s neonatal deaths are counted only through highly unreliable five-yearly retrospective household surveys, instead of being reported at the time by hospitals and health-care professionals, as in the United States. Moreover, the most premature babies — those with the highest likelihood of dying — are the least likely to be recorded in infant and neonatal mortality statistics in other countries. Compounding that difficulty, in other countries the underreporting is greatest for deaths that occur very soon after birth. Since the earliest deaths make up 75 percent of all neonatal deaths, underreporting by other countries — often misclassifying what were really live births as fetal demise (stillbirths) — would falsely exclude most neonatal deaths. Any assumption that the practice of underreporting is confined to less-developed nations is incorrect. In fact, a number of published peer-reviewed studies show that underreporting of early neonatal deaths has varied between 10 percent and 30 percent in highly developed Western European and Asian countries.

Gross differences in the fundamental definition of “live birth” invalidate comparisons of early neonatal death rates. The United States strictly adheres to the WHO definition of live birth (any infant “irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which . . . breathes or shows any other evidence of life . . . whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”) and uses a strictly implemented linked birth and infant-death data set. On the contrary, many other nations, including highly developed countries in Western Europe, use far less strict definitions, all of which underreport the live births of more fragile infants who soon die. As a consequence, they falsely report more favorable neonatal- and infant-mortality rates.

A 2006 report from WHO stated that “among developed countries, mortality rates may reflect differences in the definitions used for reporting births, such as cut-offs for registering live births and birth weight.” The Bulletin of WHO noted that “it has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth”; those who did not survive were “completely ignored for registration purposes.” Since the U.S. counts as live births all babies who show “any evidence of life,” even the most premature and the smallest — the very babies who account for the majority of neonatal deaths — it necessarily has a higher neonatal-mortality rate than countries that do not.

A separate WHO Bulletin in 2008 noted that registration of stillbirths, live births, and neonatal deaths is done differently in countries where abortion is legal compared with countries where abortion is uncommon or illegal, and these discrepancies generate substantial differences in infant-mortality rates. Jan Richardus showed that the perinatal mortality rate “can vary by 50% depending on which definition is used,” and Wilco Graafmans reported that terminology differences alone among Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. — highly developed countries with substantially different infant-mortality rates — caused rates to vary by 14 to 40 percent, and generated a false reduction in reported infant-mortality rates of up to 17 percent. These differences, coupled with the fact that the U.S. medical system is far more aggressive about resuscitating very premature infants, mean that very premature infants are even more likely to be categorized as live births in the U.S., even though they have only a small chance of surviving. Considering that, even in the U.S., roughly half of all infant mortality occurs in the first 24 hours, the single factor of omitting very early deaths in many European nations generates their falsely superior neonatal-mortality rates.

An additional major reason for the high infant-mortality rate of the United States is its high percentage of preterm births, relative to the other developed countries. Neonatal deaths are mainly associated with prematurity and low birth weight. Therefore the fact that the percentage of preterm births in the U.S. is far higher than that in all other OECD countries — 65 percent higher than in Britain, and more than double the rate in Ireland, Finland, and Greece — further undermines the validity of neonatal-mortality comparisons. Whether this high percentage arises from more aggressive in vitro fertilization, creating multiple-gestation pregnancies, from risky behaviors among pregnant women, or from other factors unrelated to the quality of medical care, the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics has concluded that “the primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births.” (M. F. MacDorman and T. J. Matthews, 2007)
#ad#Throughout the developed world, and regardless of the health-care system, infant-mortality rates are far worse among minority populations, and the U.S. has much more diversity of race and ethnicity than any other developed nation. Whether in wholly government-run health-care systems — like Canada’s, or the U.K.’s NHS — or in the mixed U.S. system, racial and ethnic minorities have higher infant-mortality rates, roughly double those of the majority. While these disparities are among the most perplexing problems in society, they are extremely complex, identifiable even when other risk factors (including maternal age, marital status, and education) are taken into account, and often entirely separate from health-care quality. Population heterogeneity specifically distorts mortality rates in the U.S., because the racial-ethnic heterogeneity of the U.S. is far higher, four to eight times that found in Western European nations like Sweden, Norway, France and the UK.

The fact is that for decades, the U.S. has shown superior infant-mortality rates using official National Center for Health Statistics and European Perinatal Health Report data — in fact, the best in the world outside of Sweden and Norway, even without correcting for any of the population and risk-factor differences deleterious to the U.S. — for premature and low-birth-weight babies, the newborns who actually need medical care and who are at highest risk of dying.

In summary, the analysis and subsequent comparison of neonatal- and infant-mortality rates have been filled with inconsistencies and pitfalls, problematic definitions, and inaccuracies. Even the use of the most fundamental term, “live births,” greatly distorts infant-mortality rates, because often the infants who die the soonest after birth are not counted as live births outside the United States. In the end, these comparisons reflect deviations in fundamental terminology, reporting accuracy, data sources, populations, and cultural-medical practices — all of which specifically disadvantage the U.S. in international rankings. And unbeknownst to organizations bent on painting a picture of inferior health care in the U.S., the peer-reviewed literature and even the WHO’s own statements agree.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/09/ ... t-w-atlas/
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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