Jamal Khashoggi
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Jamal Khashoggi
Our pals the Saudis? Turkey says they can prove the Saudis murdered Khashoggi. But why? Isn't this too much even for a country that routinely silences critics at home? It definitely sends a powerful message and gets rid of a competent critic. But how do you get away with it?
Is it really possible that nobody will hold them accountable no matter how far they go?
If it's true then isn't this an opportunity for us to do the right thing and redeem ourselves somewhat in the world's eyes? ~200 billion hardly seems like too high a price to pay for that. That's the figure Trump gave as a reason not to stop selling arms to Saudi. Of course, that figure is probably too low when we consider the unknown --to us-- value of what Saudi gives us in the region in other matters.
Still, shouldn't we consider this an opportunity to do the right thing and get away?
Is it really possible that nobody will hold them accountable no matter how far they go?
If it's true then isn't this an opportunity for us to do the right thing and redeem ourselves somewhat in the world's eyes? ~200 billion hardly seems like too high a price to pay for that. That's the figure Trump gave as a reason not to stop selling arms to Saudi. Of course, that figure is probably too low when we consider the unknown --to us-- value of what Saudi gives us in the region in other matters.
Still, shouldn't we consider this an opportunity to do the right thing and get away?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
I certainly think that the West has some serious cause for concern about the action of our nominal Saudi allies - both in this specific instance, and more broadly in terms of the intersection of human rights with the imperatives of an absolute monarchy run as a military dictatorship. A state's cheap-shot defence for killing opponents and critics is usually that the victim was acting against the interests of the state and/or that the state was ensuring the security of the people. Those who make excuses for this kind of self-justifying rot usually say that we have no room to criticise a murderous regime because we ourselves have used murder as a political weapon - and in that the issue is considered safely dodged.
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
I'll plead guilty to victim blaming, but what the eff was he doing going into Saudi territory?
He can't not have known they wanted him off the picture.
He can't not have known they wanted him off the picture.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
I don't know much about it. What's the fear then, that the Saudi pie will be redivided and not in our favor? Fine. Let Russia or China take on the defense of the Saudis. Maybe a bigger piece of that pie isn't worth having after all. I mean hasn't Putin already bitten off more than he can chew? Let him take even more with the Saudis. Provided his current alliances don't have a problem with it, right? Maybe China can run them better than we can anyway, and it's not like we can't keep getting favorable deals even if we aren't playing muscle. Suppose we start getting out now while investing heavily in alternatives, then that bigger piece of the pie looks even worse a few decades out, and who's holding it then, not us --provided our investments pay off.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Honestly, of all the dodgy and evil shit Saudi Arabia get up to, killing one guy is pretty low down the list. If we hold our nose for all the other shit, why not this as well?Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:47 pmOur pals the Saudis? Turkey says they can prove the Saudis murdered Khashoggi. But why? Isn't this too much even for a country that routinely silences critics at home? It definitely sends a powerful message and gets rid of a competent critic. But how do you get away with it?
Is it really possible that nobody will hold them accountable no matter how far they go?
If it's true then isn't this an opportunity for us to do the right thing and redeem ourselves somewhat in the world's eyes? ~200 billion hardly seems like too high a price to pay for that. That's the figure Trump gave as a reason not to stop selling arms to Saudi. Of course, that figure is probably too low when we consider the unknown --to us-- value of what Saudi gives us in the region in other matters.
Still, shouldn't we consider this an opportunity to do the right thing and get away?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Some like their oil...Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 amBut don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Oh, we're going to hold our nose. That's a given. I'm just talking shit. I can't imagine the impact breaking our relationship would have on our military/intelligence community and all their plans. --holy fuck It'll be the lesser of two evils all the way down man!
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Everyone likes their oil.pErvinalia wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 amSome like their oil...Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 amBut don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Allegedly the US doesn't need it. I dunno how true that is. But if it is, it's only their willingness to do the US's dirty work in the middle east that is keeping the relationship alive I'd imagine.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Bomb the cunts!
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 amEveryone likes their oil.pErvinalia wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 amSome like their oil...Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 amBut don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
No. If we snub them they'll go and spend all that lovely oil money on tanks and fighter jets from China or Russia instead and move their investment portfolios to the Asian markets.Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 amBut don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
The problem here is that you're applying a reasoned and considered view to a political and economic system designed to resist reasoned alternatives. I know it sounds cynical, and perhaps it is, but the only political and economic consideration here is maintaining the inflow of Saudi cash for those who've already secured a deal.I don't know much about it. What's the fear then, that the Saudi pie will be redivided and not in our favor? Fine. Let Russia or China take on the defense of the Saudis. Maybe a bigger piece of that pie isn't worth having after all. I mean hasn't Putin already bitten off more than he can chew? Let him take even more with the Saudis. Provided his current alliances don't have a problem with it, right? Maybe China can run them better than we can anyway, and it's not like we can't keep getting favorable deals even if we aren't playing muscle. Suppose we start getting out now while investing heavily in alternatives, then that bigger piece of the pie looks even worse a few decades out, and who's holding it then, not us --provided our investments pay off.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi
Saudis took down the towers. If it wasn't for the oil. The reason they took down the towers is cos they ain't much left and needed to be rid of some paperwork. This truth would be universal otherwise. Ignore me, waffling about the truth though...as usual. See my Ebola thread, well out of hand.
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