Jamal Khashoggi

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Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:47 pm

Our pals the Saudis? Turkey says they can prove the Saudis murdered Khashoggi. But why? Isn't this too much even for a country that routinely silences critics at home? It definitely sends a powerful message and gets rid of a competent critic. But how do you get away with it?


Is it really possible that nobody will hold them accountable no matter how far they go?

If it's true then isn't this an opportunity for us to do the right thing and redeem ourselves somewhat in the world's eyes? ~200 billion hardly seems like too high a price to pay for that. That's the figure Trump gave as a reason not to stop selling arms to Saudi. Of course, that figure is probably too low when we consider the unknown --to us-- value of what Saudi gives us in the region in other matters.

Still, shouldn't we consider this an opportunity to do the right thing and get away?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:59 pm

I certainly think that the West has some serious cause for concern about the action of our nominal Saudi allies - both in this specific instance, and more broadly in terms of the intersection of human rights with the imperatives of an absolute monarchy run as a military dictatorship. A state's cheap-shot defence for killing opponents and critics is usually that the victim was acting against the interests of the state and/or that the state was ensuring the security of the people. Those who make excuses for this kind of self-justifying rot usually say that we have no room to criticise a murderous regime because we ourselves have used murder as a political weapon - and in that the issue is considered safely dodged.

At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Svartalf » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:18 pm

I'll plead guilty to victim blaming, but what the eff was he doing going into Saudi territory?
He can't not have known they wanted him off the picture.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 am

At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?

I don't know much about it. What's the fear then, that the Saudi pie will be redivided and not in our favor? Fine. Let Russia or China take on the defense of the Saudis. Maybe a bigger piece of that pie isn't worth having after all. I mean hasn't Putin already bitten off more than he can chew? Let him take even more with the Saudis. Provided his current alliances don't have a problem with it, right? Maybe China can run them better than we can anyway, and it's not like we can't keep getting favorable deals even if we aren't playing muscle. Suppose we start getting out now while investing heavily in alternatives, then that bigger piece of the pie looks even worse a few decades out, and who's holding it then, not us --provided our investments pay off. :dunno:

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by laklak » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:37 am

Down with camel fuckers!
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:41 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:47 pm
Our pals the Saudis? Turkey says they can prove the Saudis murdered Khashoggi. But why? Isn't this too much even for a country that routinely silences critics at home? It definitely sends a powerful message and gets rid of a competent critic. But how do you get away with it?


Is it really possible that nobody will hold them accountable no matter how far they go?

If it's true then isn't this an opportunity for us to do the right thing and redeem ourselves somewhat in the world's eyes? ~200 billion hardly seems like too high a price to pay for that. That's the figure Trump gave as a reason not to stop selling arms to Saudi. Of course, that figure is probably too low when we consider the unknown --to us-- value of what Saudi gives us in the region in other matters.

Still, shouldn't we consider this an opportunity to do the right thing and get away?
Honestly, of all the dodgy and evil shit Saudi Arabia get up to, killing one guy is pretty low down the list. If we hold our nose for all the other shit, why not this as well?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 am
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?
Some like their oil...
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:43 am

Oh, we're going to hold our nose. That's a given. I'm just talking shit. I can't imagine the impact breaking our relationship would have on our military/intelligence community and all their plans. --holy fuck :lol: It'll be the lesser of two evils all the way down man!
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 am
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?
Some like their oil...
Everyone likes their oil.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:46 am

Allegedly the US doesn't need it. I dunno how true that is. But if it is, it's only their willingness to do the US's dirty work in the middle east that is keeping the relationship alive I'd imagine.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by JimC » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:35 am

Bomb the cunts! :lay:

(sorry to steal your line, rEv... :tea: )
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by rainbow » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:55 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 am
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?
Some like their oil...
Everyone likes their oil.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:34 am

JimC wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:35 am
Bomb the cunts! :lay:

(sorry to steal your line, rEv... :tea: )
:lay:
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:55 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 am
At this point I don't know which way the US or the UK will eventually flop on this given that keeping the Saudis sweet has been a mainstay of Western foreign policy for decades. I mean, what difference has the Salisbury poisonings really had on the West's relationship with Russia?
But don't they have more to lose than we do? Does anyone like them? I'm not joking, does anyone like the Saudis?
No. If we snub them they'll go and spend all that lovely oil money on tanks and fighter jets from China or Russia instead and move their investment portfolios to the Asian markets.
I don't know much about it. What's the fear then, that the Saudi pie will be redivided and not in our favor? Fine. Let Russia or China take on the defense of the Saudis. Maybe a bigger piece of that pie isn't worth having after all. I mean hasn't Putin already bitten off more than he can chew? Let him take even more with the Saudis. Provided his current alliances don't have a problem with it, right? Maybe China can run them better than we can anyway, and it's not like we can't keep getting favorable deals even if we aren't playing muscle. Suppose we start getting out now while investing heavily in alternatives, then that bigger piece of the pie looks even worse a few decades out, and who's holding it then, not us --provided our investments pay off. :dunno:
The problem here is that you're applying a reasoned and considered view to a political and economic system designed to resist reasoned alternatives. I know it sounds cynical, and perhaps it is, but the only political and economic consideration here is maintaining the inflow of Saudi cash for those who've already secured a deal.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by cronus » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:56 pm

Saudis took down the towers. If it wasn't for the oil. The reason they took down the towers is cos they ain't much left and needed to be rid of some paperwork. This truth would be universal otherwise. Ignore me, waffling about the truth though...as usual. See my Ebola thread, well out of hand.
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