Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

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Scot Dutchy
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:05 am

DRSB wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:16 am
I don't see how jobs can be secure unless the shareholders can guarantee they won't fold. And how can they unless they are the state?
If a company folds the wages and positions of the permanent workers is the first priority by the liquidators. Any other claims against the company are dealt with later. Temporaries have no rights. Also the government has special funds it can use to help. If the company is a member of a sector organisation the it produces funds as well. All workers contracts and working conditions are negotiated per sector and not per company.
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by DRSB » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:10 am

In Switzerland more and more jobs are temporary. Even the company management only gets temporary mandates from the shareholders.

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:37 am

DRSB wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:10 am
In Switzerland more and more jobs are temporary. Even the company management only gets temporary mandates from the shareholders.
Before we had this period of maintained growth it was going the same way here. Getting a permanent contract was made very difficult. Now with the shortage in skilled workers they are being used as carrots.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by rainbow » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:59 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:05 am
DRSB wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:16 am
I don't see how jobs can be secure unless the shareholders can guarantee they won't fold. And how can they unless they are the state?
If a company folds the wages and positions of the permanent workers is the first priority by the liquidators. Any other claims against the company are dealt with later. Temporaries have no rights. Also the government has special funds it can use to help. If the company is a member of a sector organisation the it produces funds as well. All workers contracts and working conditions are negotiated per sector and not per company.
In most countries the government takes the first cut in owing taxes and excise, then the banks, then the employees, then the creditors, and the shareholders last. The top management, knowing what is going to happen take a fat bonus before the news gets out that the company is about to go under.
Corporate Cronyism rather than Classical Capitalism.
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am

rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:59 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:05 am
DRSB wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:16 am
I don't see how jobs can be secure unless the shareholders can guarantee they won't fold. And how can they unless they are the state?
If a company folds the wages and positions of the permanent workers is the first priority by the liquidators. Any other claims against the company are dealt with later. Temporaries have no rights. Also the government has special funds it can use to help. If the company is a member of a sector organisation the it produces funds as well. All workers contracts and working conditions are negotiated per sector and not per company.
In most countries the government takes the first cut in owing taxes and excise, then the banks, then the employees, then the creditors, and the shareholders last. The top management, knowing what is going to happen take a fat bonus before the news gets out that the company is about to go under.
Corporate Cronyism rather than Classical Capitalism.
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by rainbow » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Rum » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:40 pm

rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
He says it like it is a good thing. While the zero hours jobs market is definitely a bad thing as a retired oppressive, privileged power hungry and insensitive senior manager in a large organization I would want it to be efficient and rightly or wrongly that means firing people now and again. Being tied up in procedural stuff for months on end just saps everyone's will to live. A middle way is the most desirable - as in so many things.

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:00 pm

Rum wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:40 pm
rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
He says it like it is a good thing. While the zero hours jobs market is definitely a bad thing as a retired oppressive, privileged power hungry and insensitive senior manager in a large organization I would want it to be efficient and rightly or wrongly that means firing people now and again. Being tied up in procedural stuff for months on end just saps everyone's will to live. A middle way is the most desirable - as in so many things.
Spoken like an adversarial capitalist. Companies know the rules and learn to play nicely within them which is why this society is lest stressful. Life is not just work.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by DRSB » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:03 pm

Rum wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:40 pm
rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
He says it like it is a good thing. While the zero hours jobs market is definitely a bad thing as a retired oppressive, privileged power hungry and insensitive senior manager in a large organization I would want it to be efficient and rightly or wrongly that means firing people now and again. Being tied up in procedural stuff for months on end just saps everyone's will to live. A middle way is the most desirable - as in so many things.
I too have seen many useless managers in banks who stay nicely put sending excel sheets around with no other merit to their name other than being male, from the inner land or an army officer. They are in meritocracy cliques and move together, making a move without the clique equals suicide and they know it. When the clique king falls, they fall too .

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by JimC » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:41 pm

Rum wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:40 pm
rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
He says it like it is a good thing. While the zero hours jobs market is definitely a bad thing as a retired oppressive, privileged power hungry and insensitive senior manager in a large organization I would want it to be efficient and rightly or wrongly that means firing people now and again. Being tied up in procedural stuff for months on end just saps everyone's will to live. A middle way is the most desirable - as in so many things.
I know what you mean, but mostly it is the other end of the pendulum, with wilful and capricious firing by employers. In my school, for 40 years or so, the number of people fired was tiny, as was the number of very poor teachers who needed to be fired. One young female teacher was fired (rightly) for having an affair with one of the final year boys, that was about it...
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by DRSB » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:54 am


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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Rum » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:30 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:00 pm
Rum wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:40 pm
rainbow wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:53 am
Not here. Permanent workers are priority number 1.
Communists!
He says it like it is a good thing. While the zero hours jobs market is definitely a bad thing as a retired oppressive, privileged power hungry and insensitive senior manager in a large organization I would want it to be efficient and rightly or wrongly that means firing people now and again. Being tied up in procedural stuff for months on end just saps everyone's will to live. A middle way is the most desirable - as in so many things.
Spoken like an adversarial capitalist. Companies know the rules and learn to play nicely within them which is why this society is lest stressful. Life is not just work.
Well I'm so glad I fall so neatly into one of your preconceived stereotypes. I am not an adversarial capitalist - not remotely, but I am a pragmatist and I have little doubt that the system you describe successfully hides and protects some lazy and incompetent managers as well as workers at the coal face.

Local government here is reasonably well unionised compared to the private sector these days, which is hardly at all - a great shame. So the issues I dealt with were done so with care and support. But the buggers needed to be out.

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:36 pm

No system is perfect but ours does give protection. A pragmatist would examine the system first before taking out the big brush. The great difference problems are solved here before they allowed to grow. Conflict is always avoided not encouraged.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by Cunt » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:29 pm

If your governments all lie about employment statistics, it sure is a good thing they NEVER do that with carbon credit schemes.

Unless those statistics are also vulnerable to government colouring...
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Re: Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:03 pm

Cunt wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:29 pm
If your governments all lie about employment statistics, it sure is a good thing they NEVER do that with carbon credit schemes.

Unless those statistics are also vulnerable to government colouring...
They don't lie about employment statistics. The definitions of the stat they use are readily available.
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