Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

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Sean Hayden
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Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:39 pm

What does it all mean? How can an average Joe find out?

A lot of people are saying it's bad. But they acknowledge China is a bad actor and has been for a long time. Still, they say tarrifs aren't the answer. But their evidence for why not is thin.

Some point to the lack of change so far. Can't I just ignore that? I mean how fast are things supposed to change?

Others complain that it's going to hurt US companies. But I'm okay with shrinking profit margins for companies like Apple. They'll just have to adjust. These people and our markets have had unrealistic expectations for a long time, haven't they?

Few if any seem to be offering alternatives.

Finally some just seem to really, really hate the US and anything it does is bad. They can take a number as the saying goes.

So what do you know? Help me understand this stuff. How should we react to China? What is better than tariffs?
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Tero » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:08 pm

The existing trade deals were fine. China is never going to follow all the demands from the West. But you can stop them from exporting products that break patents. They will sell them in china.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:57 pm

Tariffs are going to be particularly bad if there are retaliatory tariffs. That puts prices up across the board and means you sell less. Which means economic growth slows, unemployment grows, etc.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Tero » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:04 pm

And since we no longer make clothing and shoes, pointless to make consumers pay more. Maybe if we manufactured something, we could force a deal! We just make shit we use at home. We have land, so we have excess food. Not a high tech product but of some use in trade war.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by laklak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:15 pm

Look, they wouldn't have made this cartoon if we didn't have to worry about them. I gotta say, though, that evil habits and licentious opium don't sound that bad, and I'm a Libertarian so I can do greed.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:37 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:57 pm
Tariffs are going to be particularly bad if there are retaliatory tariffs. That puts prices up across the board and means you sell less. Which means economic growth slows, unemployment grows, etc.
But if it hurts manufacturers in China then they can move it elsewhere.

Also, what about our expectations? Is it not reasonable to expect slow downs and job loss? Why assume any solution can maintain the market's insanity?
shut up

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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:44 pm

Tero wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:04 pm
And since we no longer make clothing and shoes, pointless to make consumers pay more. Maybe if we manufactured something, we could force a deal! We just make shit we use at home. We have land, so we have excess food. Not a high tech product but of some use in trade war.
I don't understand why it's pointless for consumers to pay more. Weren't we opposed to the exploitation that has kept prices low till now?

Plus, how much of your price is the result of unrealistic expectations for profit?

Maybe shithead CEOs need to take a hit?
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Joe » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:45 pm

The big thing I've always heard is nobody wins, and prices go up, so regular folks get less from their paycheck. One place China really has us over a barrel is prescription drugs. We get most of the ingredients from them. That could hurt a lot of Americans if those prices go up.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:50 pm

Joe wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:45 pm
The big thing I've always heard is nobody wins, and prices go up, so regular folks get less from their paycheck. One place China really has us over a barrel is prescription drugs. We get most of the ingredients from them. That could hurt a lot of Americans if those prices go up.
That's interesting. Is it an opportunity for the government to step in and provide more support for healthcare? We already can't afford our medicine. Maybe the solution again revolves around expectations and priorities?
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Joe » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:16 am

Maybe. Our government could do a lot to help people out with drug costs, but they haven't. It seems like a no-brainer to use it's purchasing power to drive prices down, but one thing I've learned from watching this stuff for decades is that things in Washington are as they are because powerful interests made them that way, and keep them that way.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it's not a slam dunk, where the tariffs are seen as negative by the majority of economists surveyed. When I weigh the risks versus hypothetical benefits, I'd rather not risk bringing in the next economic downturn any sooner than necessary, and keep it as shallow as possible.

Besides, Trump doesn't want tariffs to deter Chinese bad behavior. He wants to eliminate our trade deficit with them, which is an idea that was refuted in mind-numbing detail in 1776, when Adam Smith published The Wealth of Nations. It still stands as an effective argument today, but don't rush off to read it. :biggrin:

Here's a pretty humorous TL;DR.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Hermit » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:38 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:44 pm
I don't understand why it's pointless for consumers to pay more. Weren't we opposed to the exploitation that has kept prices low till now?
We're talking about rising prices due to tariffs just now, right? Are you suggesting that tariffs improve the lot of poorly paid workers?
Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:44 pm
Plus, how much of your price is the result of unrealistic expectations for profit?
Unrealistic expectations for profit do not add a a cent to the price of goods or services. Actual profit does. How much? How long is a piece of string?

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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by Tero » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:44 am

Tariffs are added: consumer pays more. The distributor/importer has to pay the tariff. It does not hurt or help the worker in China, that cost is nothing. The company in China making the shit sees reduced profits due to people buying the cheapest choice of every item rather than the mid price item they used to buy. Your plastic forks and cups will just be wimpier.

Wiki: The United States imposes tariffs (customs duties) on imports of goods. The duty is levied at the time of import and is paid by the importer of record. Customs duties vary by country of origin and product. Goods from many countries are exempt from duty under various trade agreements.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by laklak » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:49 am

They're an economic weapon, and like any weapon can be useful when properly used. Whether or not Trump is doing that remains to be seen. Mexico has cut a new deal, and Canada appears likely to do so. No idea what China will do, inscrutable, that lot.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:59 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:37 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:57 pm
Tariffs are going to be particularly bad if there are retaliatory tariffs. That puts prices up across the board and means you sell less. Which means economic growth slows, unemployment grows, etc.
But if it hurts manufacturers in China then they can move it elsewhere.
Who can move what elsewhere? Manufacture is cheap in China. Anywhere else with their level of expertise and infrastructure is going to be way more expensive.
Also, what about our expectations? Is it not reasonable to expect slow downs and job loss? Why assume any solution can maintain the market's insanity?
You don't want to unnecessarily hamstring the economy and increase job losses. Unfortunately the protected industry boat has long sailed (i.e. the WTO rules are now across the board). Any attempt at protectionism is going to be met with retaliation by the relevant trading partners. And that can only lead to higher costs and reduced economic output. Who knows, though, in the long term it might actually work out OK. A nation being more self-sufficient has to have some benefits.
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Re: Tariffs, Tarrifs, Tarrifs!

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:02 am

laklak wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:49 am
They're an economic weapon, and like any weapon can be useful when properly used. Whether or not Trump is doing that remains to be seen. Mexico has cut a new deal, and Canada appears likely to do so. No idea what China will do, inscrutable, that lot.
Trump might hold the upper hand, as the US imports way more stuff from China than China does from the US. I don't know what else there is to consider in the equation, but it seems to me that China has more to lose than the US.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

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