The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Forty Two » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:03 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:13 pm
Look, lying about something you did wrong isn't illegal, unless you're Rick Gates of course. :tea:
....depends who you're lying to. Lying like - "I did not have sex with that woman," to the American people, that's not a crime. To Robert Mueller, that would be a crime. That's one of the favorite gets of the FBI - get a person in a room, promise him years of grief, and $200,000+ in legal fees, and possible 100 years in jail, or talk, and you better remember, because if you mix up you're dates, it's a federal crime (if they want it to be).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:09 am

Question.

Is it illegal in the US for a foreign government to give material support (money, manpower, technical resources, etc) to a domestic political party or organisation or an individual running tor public office?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:13 am

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:13 pm
Look, lying about something you did wrong isn't illegal, unless you're Rick Gates of course. :tea:
....depends who you're lying to. Lying like - "I did not have sex with that woman," to the American people, that's not a crime. To Robert Mueller, that would be a crime. That's one of the favorite gets of the FBI - get a person in a room, promise him years of grief, and $200,000+ in legal fees, and possible 100 years in jail, or talk, and you better remember, because if you mix up you're dates, it's a federal crime (if they want it to be).
Are extramarital affairs illegal in the US? Is Robert Mueller a member of The New Puritan Brotherhood? :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:20 am

Forty Two wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am
Hypothetical.

If some Russians did have dirt on Trump, or Clinton -- let's say both. Let's say, a Russian says to both campaigns - I have dirt on your opponent, and I want to meet with you. Both campaigns agree to meet to hear about what they have. They both meet, and see that it entails thousands of emails which show their opponent in a bad light, and would certainly be very bad press for both. Neither campaign takes the information. The information is later released by Wikileaks. What crime was committed?

Assume those facts to be true. Can you conclude a crime was committed based on that? Why or why not?
Crime or no crime, Trump is as dodgy as fuck. And you support the guy.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Forty Two » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:31 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:13 am
Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:13 pm
Look, lying about something you did wrong isn't illegal, unless you're Rick Gates of course. :tea:
....depends who you're lying to. Lying like - "I did not have sex with that woman," to the American people, that's not a crime. To Robert Mueller, that would be a crime. That's one of the favorite gets of the FBI - get a person in a room, promise him years of grief, and $200,000+ in legal fees, and possible 100 years in jail, or talk, and you better remember, because if you mix up you're dates, it's a federal crime (if they want it to be).
Are extramarital affairs illegal in the US? Is Robert Mueller a member of The New Puritan Brotherhood? :tea:
No, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you can be strung up for misstatements to the FBI even if what you "lie" about is not itself a crime. Lying to the authorities during a federal investigation can be a five year felony.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Forty Two » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:32 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:20 am
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am
Hypothetical.

If some Russians did have dirt on Trump, or Clinton -- let's say both. Let's say, a Russian says to both campaigns - I have dirt on your opponent, and I want to meet with you. Both campaigns agree to meet to hear about what they have. They both meet, and see that it entails thousands of emails which show their opponent in a bad light, and would certainly be very bad press for both. Neither campaign takes the information. The information is later released by Wikileaks. What crime was committed?

Assume those facts to be true. Can you conclude a crime was committed based on that? Why or why not?
Crime or no crime, Trump is as dodgy as fuck. And you support the guy.
You dodged the hypothetical by declaring him dodgy. So's Clinton. Doesn't change the hypothetical that both are dodgy as fuck.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am

The key difference being you support Trump, whereas I don't support either of them. :fp:
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by tattuchu » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:49 am

Not to mention, on a scale of dodginess, Clinton comes up mild-to-moderate, while Trump breaks the fucking meter. Hardly an either/or, 50/50 proposition.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Yeah. It's no contest.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Forty Two » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:04 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am
The key difference being you support Trump, whereas I don't support either of them. :fp:
Fair enough, if that's accurate. Do you have a clear preference as between the two?

As for "supporting" Trump - a more accurate description of my position is that I support certain of his political positions as compared to Clintons. Where I agree with Clinton, the issues are of less importance to me. Where I agree with Trump, the issues are of more importance to me. So, on balance, I support Trump because of that. I think overall things would be worse economically under Clinton, and we would have a more interventionist foreign policy than we've seen so far with Trump. I also think Clinton would have pursued more "progressive" style economic policies, which I don't generally support.

His dodginess is unfortunate, but so far I see nothing that is of particular substantive conscern. It's mostly, if not all, sizzle, and no steak, and I find that the attacks on him smack clearly of politics. I don't find the Democrats to be any less sneaky and underhanded than Republicans, and this is a vicious game of politics. I don't exempt Trump from that either - he'll knife his opposition underhandedly if he gets the chance.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Forty Two » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:14 pm

tattuchu wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:49 am
Not to mention, on a scale of dodginess, Clinton comes up mild-to-moderate, while Trump breaks the fucking meter. Hardly an either/or, 50/50 proposition.
Well, there I disagree. Trump has her beat on lack of couth, public impropriety, rudeness, absence of grace and manners, discourteousness, and raunchiness and the like, but she has him beat in skilled political gameplayer, two-facedness, and political machine manipulator.

It's not mathematics, so people make their own judgments. Trump
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Jason » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:56 pm

That's not even proper English 42.

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Joe » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:17 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am
Hypothetical.

If some Russians did have dirt on Trump, or Clinton -- let's say both. Let's say, a Russian says to both campaigns - I have dirt on your opponent, and I want to meet with you. Both campaigns agree to meet to hear about what they have. They both meet, and see that it entails thousands of emails which show their opponent in a bad light, and would certainly be very bad press for both. Neither campaign takes the information. The information is later released by Wikileaks. What crime was committed?

Assume those facts to be true. Can you conclude a crime was committed based on that? Why or why not?
Of course not. There is too little information here to draw conclusions. This isn't a very useful question Forty Two. Let's ask a better question.

What would you have to find out subsequently for you to conclude a crime had been committed, and what crime(s)?
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Jason » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:42 pm

Humble question: Is it currently illegal to volunteer information to foreign agents regarding domestic politics, specifically information that may influence the course of a domestic election?

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Joe » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Śiva wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:42 pm
Humble question: Is it currently illegal to volunteer information to foreign agents regarding domestic politics, specifically information that may influence the course of a domestic election?
I don't know enough to say.

It may fall under the Espionage Act of 1917, a rather over broad and problematic statute that covers providing information to foreign governments and their agents, but what information was provided and the intent of the providing it would be factors. :dunno:
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