Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

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L'Emmerdeur
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat May 19, 2018 9:37 am

Seabass wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:27 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:33 pm
The interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as protecting the right of citizens of the US to keep and bear arms irrespective of the issue of 'well regulated militia' is correct, in my opinion.
Well then why even include the phrase at all?

Why not simply:
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

instead of:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Even if we accept that the part before the comma gives the reason for the part after it, the word "regulated" has to be there for a reason...
Yes, it's there for a reason. First let us examine what the phrase 'well regulated' meant at the time of the writing of the Constitution:
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

[Italics mine. -- L'E]
In my opinion the italicized sentence extends the meaning beyond what can be supported. Reasonable government oversight of gun ownership doesn't necessarily infringe the people's right to own guns. Therefore the idea that the government should be 'powerless' to oversee gun ownership is incorrect.

Next we need to understand what the authors of the Bill of Rights understood by the term 'militia.'
When the Constitution was ratified, the Framers unanimously believed that the "militia" included all of the people capable of bearing arms.

George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people." Likewise, the Federal Farmer, one of the most important Anti-Federalist opponents of the Constitution, referred to a "militia, when properly formed, [as] in fact the people themselves." The list goes on and on.

By contrast, nowhere is to be found a contemporaneous definition of the militia, by any of the Framers, as anything other than the "whole body of the people." Indeed, as one commentator said, the notion that the Framers intended the Second Amendment to protect the "collective" right of the states to maintain militias rather than the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, "remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis."

Furthermore, returning to the text of the Second Amendment itself, the right to keep and bear arms is expressly retained by "the people," not the states.

[source]
Given the above, it seems inescapable to me that the 2nd Amendment protects the right of people to keep and bear arms, irrespective of what contemporary politics attempts to make of the phrase 'well regulated militia.'

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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Rum » Sat May 19, 2018 11:10 am

Right then. No change. Every kid in pretty much every school remains afraid today will be their last day on earth and will have to put up with it - cos a 200 year old document is too stuck in concrete to be amended. Nice civilized society you have there.

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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Tero » Sat May 19, 2018 11:23 am

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

“It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat May 19, 2018 11:25 am

Clearly there are existing regulations on gun ownership in the US, and I haven't argued against such regulation. Nothing except intransigence on the part of a particular lobby and their toadies prevents a responsible attempt at further regulation intended to help prevent mass shootings. The basic right to gun ownership is clearly protected by the Constitution, regardless. Even if a Constitutional convention were to be called, it's vanishingly unlikely that the 2nd Amendment would be repealed, for at least two reasons.

1. Those who most vociferously have been agitating for a Constitutional convention are in fact Tea Party fuckwits and associated right-wingers.

2. The majority of state legislatures (the governmental bodies responsible for ratifying Constitutional amendments) are controlled by the Republican party.

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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Woodbutcher » Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 pm

My thoughts and prayers go to the NRA.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat May 19, 2018 1:44 pm

Let citizens own whatever guns they want. Just tightly regulated and limit ammo sales and only make it available at the point of use.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by laklak » Sat May 19, 2018 2:53 pm

There's not a lot of information at the moment. Early reports said the kid broke into his dad's gun safe to get the weapons but no confirmation on that. Also that explosive devices were found in an around the school. He had apparently been planning this for a long time.

I looked up Texas gun laws, they're pretty loose, as in "practically non-existent".
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Tero » Sat May 19, 2018 4:34 pm

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The militia amendment. The issue of guns and citizens was not a federal issue at the time. Each state or even county could figure out the guns.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by Seabass » Sat May 19, 2018 8:49 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:37 am
Seabass wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:27 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:33 pm
The interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as protecting the right of citizens of the US to keep and bear arms irrespective of the issue of 'well regulated militia' is correct, in my opinion.
Well then why even include the phrase at all?

Why not simply:
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

instead of:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Even if we accept that the part before the comma gives the reason for the part after it, the word "regulated" has to be there for a reason...
Yes, it's there for a reason. First let us examine what the phrase 'well regulated' meant at the time of the writing of the Constitution:
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

[Italics mine. -- L'E]
In my opinion the italicized sentence extends the meaning beyond what can be supported. Reasonable government oversight of gun ownership doesn't necessarily infringe the people's right to own guns. Therefore the idea that the government should be 'powerless' to oversee gun ownership is incorrect.

Next we need to understand what the authors of the Bill of Rights understood by the term 'militia.'
When the Constitution was ratified, the Framers unanimously believed that the "militia" included all of the people capable of bearing arms.

George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people." Likewise, the Federal Farmer, one of the most important Anti-Federalist opponents of the Constitution, referred to a "militia, when properly formed, [as] in fact the people themselves." The list goes on and on.

By contrast, nowhere is to be found a contemporaneous definition of the militia, by any of the Framers, as anything other than the "whole body of the people." Indeed, as one commentator said, the notion that the Framers intended the Second Amendment to protect the "collective" right of the states to maintain militias rather than the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, "remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis."

Furthermore, returning to the text of the Second Amendment itself, the right to keep and bear arms is expressly retained by "the people," not the states.

[source]
Given the above, it seems inescapable to me that the 2nd Amendment protects the right of people to keep and bear arms, irrespective of what contemporary politics attempts to make of the phrase 'well regulated militia.'
Well then, I guess we're screwed, 'cause that damn thing'll be repealed when pigs fly.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by JimC » Sat May 19, 2018 10:29 pm

Hermit wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:20 am
JimC wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:34 am
There is no likely solution. The US is locked into a high level of gun-related violence. No real pathway to actual change is going to succeed; gun culture is ingrained. You are fucked, and you just have to live die with it.

For US people accusing me of pessimism, show me a realistic path that alters things there.
:fix:

Eventually there'll need to be an amendment that nullifies the second just like the 21st nullified the 18th. Either that, or a saner interpretation of the 2nd needs to be enshrined. For starters, I don't see how the availability of concealable firearms contribute to the defence against a tyrannous government in any meaningful way. As for long-barrelled arms, a militia can be just as well regulated if those guns are stored in the militias' armoury when not needed for actually overthrowing a tyrannous government or exercises aimed at honing the skills for doing exactly that.
I can agree with that, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a stalemate. Even if some mild increases in the regulation of guns were to occur (and given the power of the NRA, even that is unlikely), you will still have a society awash with guns, where it is much, much easier for a deranged person to get a gun, one way or another, than in other western democracies. There is no short or medium term pathway to a situation where gun deaths will significantly decrease.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by mistermack » Sat May 19, 2018 11:02 pm

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Since the first part is no longer true, there's no reason why the second part should now apply.
The first part was true at the time, and was clearly and unambiguously used to justify the second part.
Now that the first part is no longer the case, the second part is no longer justified.

If you want to argue that the second part should stand on it's own, and the first part doesn't matter, then you are treating the constitution with the same contempt that you accuse others of.
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by JimC » Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 pm

mistermack wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:02 pm
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Since the first part is no longer true, there's no reason why the second part should now apply.
The first part was true at the time, and was clearly and unambiguously used to justify the second part.
Now that the first part is no longer the case, the second part is no longer justified.

If you want to argue that the second part should stand on it's own, and the first part doesn't matter, then you are treating the constitution with the same contempt that you accuse others of.
The NRA and associated right-wing nut-jobs will vigorously defend the first part. They have an unshakeable belief that they and their guns are the only thing standing between God's Own Country and a vicious dictatorship imposed by evil liberals...
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by mistermack » Sat May 19, 2018 11:25 pm

JimC wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 pm
The NRA and associated right-wing nut-jobs will vigorously defend the first part. They have an unshakeable belief that they and their guns are the only thing standing between God's Own Country and a vicious dictatorship imposed by evil liberals...
Well they can try, but the evidence of the rest of the world is overwhelming and clear cut.
It's clearly not true.

Maybe they can argue that it's true in America, because there are so many guns around. :biggrin:
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by JimC » Sat May 19, 2018 11:28 pm

Well of course it's not true, just like any religious faith. But they will cling to it fervently, and they have enough influence, and that cultural gun tradition is so strong, that, IMO, they will not be shifted, and reforms will die still born....
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Re: Texas School Shooting: 10 dead

Post by rainbow » Sun May 20, 2018 9:48 am

mistermack wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:25 pm
JimC wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 pm
The NRA and associated right-wing nut-jobs will vigorously defend the first part. They have an unshakeable belief that they and their guns are the only thing standing between God's Own Country and a vicious dictatorship imposed by evil liberals...
Well they can try, but the evidence of the rest of the world is overwhelming and clear cut.
It's clearly not true.

Maybe they can argue that it's true in America, because there are so many guns around. :biggrin:
How can it not be true?

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