Change the name of Israel

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Svartalf
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm

Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:19 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:01 pm
Being Palestinian doesn't foreclose one being Jewish, does it?
You're right. I doesn't.

In 1931 there were 4.35 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 1947 there were 1.87 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 2016 there were 0.24 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.

The cartoon reflects that very well indeed.
You mean in the territories claimed by israel, right?
I'm pretty sure that taking into account the populations of the gaza strip and the refugee camps in Syria and Lebanon would change that ratio quite a bit.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:38 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm
Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:19 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:01 pm
Being Palestinian doesn't foreclose one being Jewish, does it?
You're right. I doesn't.

In 1931 there were 4.35 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 1947 there were 1.87 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 2016 there were 0.24 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.

The cartoon reflects that very well indeed.
You mean in the territories claimed by israel, right?
Yes.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 am

I rest my case - your own link doesn't support your proposition that of .24 Palestinians for every 1 Jew in the area. It does support about .24 Palestinians per Jew in Israel proper - excluding the west bank - that's because about 75% of Israel is Jewish, 25% is Palestinian Arab (so that about .24 to 1). However, that is NOT the same land area as your numbers for 1939 or 1946 in "Palestine" because Palestine includes the West Bank and Gaza (today, west bank and Gaza have about 8.5 to 9 million Palestinian Muslims and about and Jordan (another 8 or 9 million Muslims) -- compared to more or less, 0 Jews.

The fact that there were militant Jewish groups doesn't change that. Your assertion was that the Palestinians are historically being driven out of Palestine and your population numbers showed a descending Palestinian Muslim to Palestinian Jew ratio. That's just not true.

It's the Arabs and the Grand Mufti in the 1930s who sided with Adolph Hitler in Nazi Germany. The Muslim revolts of the 1930s led by the alQassam faction and were financially supported by fascist Italy. They demanded an end to Jewish immigration. They hated Jews. Can't be Jewish there. The "holy land" is rightfully Muslim. The Grand Mufti promised "the revenge of God Almighty" if the Brits didn't stop "the Jews" from immigrating.

The Grand Mufti entered a declaration with Germany and Italy which said, in part - "Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy."

Grand Mufti in 1943 - knowing that the holocaust was occurring, because he said himself that Heinrich Himmler told him the Germans had already wiped out 3 million Jews.... knowing that, The Grand Mufti wrote - "It is the duty of Muhammadans [Muslims] in general and Arabs in particular to ... drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries... . Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world."
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:58 am

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm
Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:19 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:01 pm
Being Palestinian doesn't foreclose one being Jewish, does it?
You're right. I doesn't.

In 1931 there were 4.35 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 1947 there were 1.87 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 2016 there were 0.24 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.

The cartoon reflects that very well indeed.
You mean in the territories claimed by israel, right?
I'm pretty sure that taking into account the populations of the gaza strip and the refugee camps in Syria and Lebanon would change that ratio quite a bit.
Bingo. Of course. The 4.35 Muslims to Jews in 1931 is not referring to the same land area as the 2016 number. The 2016 number is only Israel - no west bank, no gaza, no golan heights, no portions of Syria, no Jordan, no Sinai.....
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 am

If by any chance you think any of your posts are arguments against the validity of the cartoon I linked to, I can only laugh.

This is an accurate depiction of what happened:

Image

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:34 pm

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a legal challenge to the military’s rules on when soldiers can fire their weapons amid weeks of violent protests that have killed dozens of Palestinians on the border with Gaza.

Six human rights groups had asked the court to declare as unlawful any regulations that allow soldiers to open fire at unarmed civilians.

But in its unanimous ruling, the court sided with the Israeli military, which argued that the protests were taking place in the context of a long-running armed conflict with the Islamic militant group Hamas which rules Gaza and that weapons-use regulations are subject to the rules of armed conflict. Such rules provide greater leeway for the use of lethal force than those governing law enforcement practices.
https://www.apnews.com/da582f11ad4443ddbf44ea6f2fc72c3a
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm
I'm pretty sure that taking into account the populations of the gaza strip and the refugee camps in Syria and Lebanon would change that ratio quite a bit.
The treatment of Palestinian refugees by Syria and Lebanon is quite disgusting, and is far more deserving of the term "apartheid" than the treatment of Arab Israelis. I wonder why nobody ever kicks up a stink about that...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:02 pm

More whataboutism...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 am
Grand Mufti in 1943 - knowing that the holocaust was occurring, because he said himself that Heinrich Himmler told him the Germans had already wiped out 3 million Jews.... knowing that, The Grand Mufti wrote - "It is the duty of Muhammadans [Muslims] in general and Arabs in particular to ... drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries...
And indeed, the Arab countries did just that, driving millions of Jews out of their countries after WW2 with only what they could carry, dispossessing them of land whose total area dwarfs the size of the land upon which Israel sits.

But again, nobody kicks up a stink about that stolen land, land upon which you could build four Israels. I wonder why...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Hermit wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 am
If by any chance you think any of your posts are arguments against the validity of the cartoon I linked to, I can only laugh.

This is an accurate depiction of what happened:

Image
It would be more accurate if you included the panels where the man keeps trying to kill the dog.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm

How does that justify dispossessing the Palestinians today? More whataboutism... are you a Russian propaganda agent?
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:17 pm

Jason wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm
How does that justify dispossessing the Palestinians today? More whataboutism... are you a Russian propaganda agent?
English is my first language. That's why I am able to confidently state that there was no justification for dispossessing Palestinians of anything in any of my posts. Please do try reading what is actually written.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:37 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:17 pm
Jason wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm
How does that justify dispossessing the Palestinians today? More whataboutism... are you a Russian propaganda agent?
English is my first language. That's why I am able to confidently state that there was no justification for dispossessing Palestinians of anything in any of my posts. Please do try reading what is actually written.
Then what are you trying to say? It seems to me, professor, that you're attempting to deflect criticism of what Israel is doing by pointing to events in the past and crying "What about that?"

To what end?

You'll also note that I didn't say that you where justifying the dispossession of the Palestinians in Israel. That was your conclusion. You must have parsed what I wrote and assumed the thrust of my gist. Funny that.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:07 pm

Actually, you're trying to deflect criticism about what Palestinians did and are doing by pointing to other things and saying "what about that?"
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Jason wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:02 pm
More whataboutism...
Nope. What he's saying is that people concern themselves with the less dramatic things in Israel because the alleged oppressors there are jews. Where the alleged oppressor is Muslim, then there is less interest. That's not whattaboutism. It's illustration of hypocrisy and anti-semitism.
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