Change the name of Israel

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:02 pm

It is certainly true that Arab citizens of Israel are treated as second-class citizens, and that their land ownership is under constant threat from an illegal but government sanctioned settlement program.

A lot of 42's defence of Israel is classic "whataboutism"; it all revolves around pointing out the iniquities of surrounding Arab states. No one in this thread that I can see is blind to their shortcomings, or their dangerous connection to various Islamic movements. Certainly, when Israeli territory and citizens are attacked by rockets or suicide bombers, then a vigorous (but proportionate) response is clearly justified.

None of that should be an excuse to overlook the excessive violence used by Israeli authorities, the iniquities of the settlement program or the dangerous tendency to connect state and religion...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:17 pm

Jews took the lessons of Nazi Germany to heart, they created their own Nazi state and disenfranchise unterMenschen that happens not to have the right heredity and beliefs.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:32 pm
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:01 am
:lol: Is there another kind in this debate? Their link doesn't work anyway. I'll have to find it elsewhere. It was supposedly leaked immediately.
Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.

There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel".
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/co ... 30765.html
It reads to me as if the author, Patrick Cockburn, is quotemining a marketing/public relations report. That's the kind of thing public relations companies do -- tell their client how to phrase their message to get the most impact. This is not a big deal.

Troubling to me is unsubstantiated, but foundational, facts that are stated as "truth." He says "Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaiing how they killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza.... As best as I can guess, this number refers to an estimate of total number of deaths in Gaza which are attributed (by whoever came up with the figure) to a 12-year blockade of Gaza. I think this 1000 deaths from 2007 to 2018 is a bit speculative. Since 2010, all non-military and dual-use items were allowed into Gaza. The Israeli 'blockade" is an inspection of imports for weapons and munitions.
Israel announced that it will allow all strictly civilian goods into Gaza while preventing weapons and what it designates as "dual-use" items from entering Gaza. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_ ... e_blockade
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 pm

Cooks in Gaza to revive the art of flint and obsidian knapping as Israel denies entry of knives into the zone.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:38 pm

Do you remember when we were having a reasonable discussion here?

I remember. :tea:
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:42 pm

You mean in this particular thread, or in general? I'm not sure I ever remember such a time on this site... :read:
Last edited by Svartalf on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:43 pm

:hehe:
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:27 pm

Image

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:45 pm

Such democracy.

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Far Out Magazine logo
Israel could ban Icelandic Eurovision entrant over political views
Israel could ban Icelandic Eurovision entrant over political views
Far Out StaffFar Out StaffMarch 10, 2019
Iceland’s representative for this year’s Eurovision Song Contest, Hatari, may be banned from entering Israel, if the Israeli “lawfare” organisation Shurat HaDin get their way.

In a statement, Shurat HaDin’s founder Nitsana Darshan-Leitner said:“We received information that the band representing Iceland supports a boycott of Israel. Last summer, the band signed a petition distributed in Iceland calling for the boycott of the Eurovision Song Contest. After being selected, Hatari announced that it intended to protest against Israel on stage at the Eurovision Song Contest, despite the fact that it would violate the rules of competition.

“According to the amendment to the Entry into Israel Law, a person who is not an Israeli citizen or in possession of a permanent residence permit in Israel will not be granted a visa or residency permit, if he or the organisation or body he is working for has knowingly issued a public call to boycott Israel, as defined in the Law for Prevention of Damage to State of Israel through Boycott. The Icelandic band publicly and explicitly called for and supported a boycott of Israel. They must be prohibited from entering the country.”
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/israel-cou ... s06Wo__SWQ
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:11 pm

Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:27 pm
Image
That flag is the flag of the PLO and was not in existence in 1946 or 1947. I think the flag in the cartoon didn't get adopted until the late 1960s.

In 1946, the land which is now Israel and the palestinian territories was controlled by the British - the British Mandate for Palestine. On March 22, 2019, the London Treaty gave independence to Transjordan. So, in 1946, Gaza was controlled by Egypt, and the "west bank" was part of Transjordan.

Israel itself did not exist until 1948, but neither did Palestine or the Palestinian territories. The land there was just Arabs, Christians and Jews, and Zoroastrians and Druze, and others, living in land under the British and French Mandates which were slowly carving out countries -- Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, etc. Gaza was controlled by Egypt back then.

If someone wants to point out a time in the actual, real-life chronology of history where a nation under the Palestinian flag was peacefully resting and then another nation called Israel came in like the dog in the cartoon and took over, please do. Because, really, what this cartoon illustrates best is the completely false narrative that the Palestinians were a country sitting their minding their own business and then outsiders just sort of showed up and pushed them out. That isn't true. The Jewish people were also there in 1946, just as much as the Muslim people.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:46 pm

For crying out loud, it's a cartoon, not a court case. As cartoons go, it captures the kernel of 20th century Jewish-Palestinian history rather well. Certainly than your Gish-gallop.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:01 pm

As cartoons go, it doesn't describe 20th century Jewish-Palestinian history well at all.

Why don't you call it "Jewish-Muslim" history anyway. Being Palestinian doesn't foreclose one being Jewish, does it? Heck, Palestinian Jews was the term used in 4th to 7th century Byzantium through the 19th and early 20th century Ottoman Empire, and then in the early 20th century under the British and French Mandates.

I wonder why Palestinians don't like Jews living in their country. I feel like the reason is obvious, but I just can't place it, can you? Do you think there is a reason why there was a Jordanian law, and then later a Palestinian territories law, against selling land to Jews (punishable by the death penalty)? Do you think Israel has a law against selling land to Muslims?

It's o.k., though. Israel is the oppressor, and Palestinian Authority the oppressed, so, you know, under the Progressive Stack, we know who is right and who is wrong.

We need to be in favor of open immigration, because no people are "illegal." Palestinians should be allowed free movement into Israel to live and work, and since they're not, it's totally understandable that they would violently attack Israelis. However, under no circumstances should Jews be permitted to move to Palestinian territories, because that land is for Muslims. In fact, Israel itself is occupied by Jews - it's a rightfully Muslim land, occupied by Jews.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:19 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:01 pm
Being Palestinian doesn't foreclose one being Jewish, does it?
You're right. I doesn't.

In 1931 there were 4.35 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 1947 there were 1.87 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.
In 2016 there were 0.24 Muslim Palestinians for every Jewish Palestinian.

The cartoon reflects that very well indeed.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:37 pm

Those numbers are patently ridiculous. Isn't it obvious why?

Show your source on that.

As of 2016 -- Israel has 8.5 million people, and about 6 million of them are Jews. Jordan has a population of about 9.5 million, 98% of which are Muslim, and the other 2% are Druze and Armenian. Almost none are Jews. About 100% of the West Bank and Gaza are Muslim, with a small percentage of Druze and other. Almost no Jews. There are about 4.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. That covers most of what was "Palestine" in 1931. That's .42 Jewish Palestinians for every Muslim Palestinian (conservative estimate).

Where are you getting your numbers from?

Or, are you comparing the population of ISRAELI Jews to Israeli Arabs -- meaning .24 ISRAELI Arabs for every ISRAELI Jew? That would make sense in 2016, since 75% of ISRAEL is Jewish. However, you forgot that the lands comprising "Palestinians" in 1947 and 1931 included the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan.... etc.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:13 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:37 pm
Those numbers are patently ridiculous. Isn't it obvious why?

Show your source on that.

Where are you getting your numbers from?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:37 pm
...are you comparing the population of ISRAELI Jews to Israeli Arabs -- meaning .24 ISRAELI Arabs for every ISRAELI Jew? That would make sense in 2016, since 75% of ISRAEL is Jewish.
If you prefer, you can also look at figures given by a pro-Jewish site. Note the drop in the non-Jewish population between 1946 and 1948.

Yes, of course you will bring up the first Israeli-Arab war, but I guess you'll not mention terrorist organisations like Haganah, which began activities in 1920 and did not cease until it was absorbed into the Israeli army. You won't mention Irgun either, which split from Haganah in 1931 because the new organisation regarded Haganah as not bellicose enough. It too was integrated with the IDF when the time came. Nor will you mention Lehi, which in turn split from Irgun in 1940. It was even more militant, and its stated aim was to use force to bring about the formation of a Jewish state, a "new totalitarian Hebrew republic".

So we got a whole bunch of Zionist terrorist organisations shooting up the neighbourhood long before the advent of the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, and those organisations became the Israeli defence force. You don't expect the Israeli army anno 1948 and following to be any less terroristic by any chance, do you?

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