Change the name of Israel

[Svartalf]

quick, let Palestinians throw stones at some Jews.

[Forty Two]

That is not what we are bitching about. At least not I. I bitch about the squeezing out of the Palestinians.

And, I'm happy to discuss that. So, present some evidence or a link thereto of this squeeze-out.

No, you can't blame it on the Palestinians themselves,

I don't blame anything on them at the moment. I await proof of its occurrence.

or the 1948 Israeli- Palestinian war. The fighting started long before that. Three Jewish terrorist organisations, Haganah, Irgun and Lehi were founded in 1921, 1931 and 1940 respectively with the explicit aim to create a Jewish Lebensraum. I mentioned them at least twice before, which you ignored both times.

Because they're not relevant - there were Muslim terrorist organizations at the time - and they were working to eliminate the Jews from the middle east altogether. Sure, there was a lot of sectarian fighting. That doesn't make Israel any more illegitimate than Jordan, does it?

If you want to look for British culpability, you'll find it where they promised the same plot of land to the Arabs in a series of ten letters between Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca, and Lieutenant Colonel Sir Henry McMahon, British High Commissioner to Egypt in 1915 and 1916, and to the Jews by Lord Balfour in 1917. Both promises were made in exchange for military support against the Ottoman empire.

Of what relevance would a promise to the "Sharif of Mecca" (Saudi Arabia) be regarding land in the British Mandate being promised to "Arabs?" Was it promised to Mecca? So, it should be part of Saudi Arabia? Or, was it promised to an ethnic group in general? I've not read those letters, but I'd love to. Do you have a link to the text?

Where was this plot of land, and why would Egypt care if that land was promised to Jews or Muslims? Is there some reason an Islamic Country would be preferable over a Jewish one?

Let's read those letters, though, and see what they say. I'm sure you have a link, since you are quite familiar with their text, and not merely summaries provided by interested person.

[Hermit]

That is not what we are bitching about. At least not I. I bitch about the squeezing out of the Palestinians.

And, I'm happy to discuss that. So, present some evidence or a link thereto of this squeeze-out.

How many more times? Do you really need a repetition of already mentioned facts, such as that in 1939 the Palestine region now known as Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip contained a population, 30% of which was Jewish, and that those Jews owned 12% of the land? That in1948 half of the Palestinian population fled or was expelled from the areas the newly minted Israelis wanted to take over?

or the 1948 Israeli- Palestinian war. The fighting started long before that. Three Jewish terrorist organisations, Haganah, Irgun and Lehi were founded in 1921, 1931 and 1940 respectively with the explicit aim to create a Jewish Lebensraum. I mentioned them at least twice before, which you ignored both times.

Because they're not relevant - there were Muslim terrorist organizations at the time - and they were working to eliminate the Jews from the middle east altogether. Sure, there was a lot of sectarian fighting. That doesn't make Israel any more illegitimate than Jordan, does it?

The earliest Muslim organisations that have been known to perpetrate acts of terrorism that I could find are the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), Fatah, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command (PFLP-GC), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Abu Nidal Organization, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. None existed before 1964. You need to help me out.

As for the relevance of Jewish terrorist organisations, Haganah, Irgun and Lehi, it is undeniable. They were not fighting for coexistence with Arabs. They fought for exclusive possession of the promised land by the chosen people. That goal is getting ever closer with formal and de facto annexations. Entire Arab villages keep being bulldozed on the West Bank and the Golan Heights to make way for Jewish settlements. Most importantly, the desire to make Israel a Jewish state was explicitly formalised in last year's Basic Law, which states that Israel is a nation for the Jews. Not for its citizens. For Jews. Bad luck if you are a citizen of Israel of Arab descent. Good luck if you are a Jew living anywhere in the world.

It is this Basic Law, Basic Laws standing in as a form of constitutional law for as long as Israel does not have a formal constitution, that makes it increasingly difficult for me to prefer the existence of this nation to an Islamic theocracy that would replace it. My preference for Israel is becoming a case of "the enemy of my enemy..." As time goes by my support for Israel's continued existence becomes increasingly undermined by its own actions. Instead of being able to say that I support it because its secular and democratic government makes me like it, I am driven to the position that at least that nation fights my greater enemy. That is not altogether dissimilar to the time the USA supported the Mujahideen to the tune of 1 or 2 billion dollars in weapons, logistics, training because they gave grief to the USSR. We do know that this had mixed results, yes?

If you want to look for British culpability, you'll find it where they promised the same plot of land to the Arabs in a series of ten letters between Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca, and Lieutenant Colonel Sir Henry McMahon, British High Commissioner to Egypt in 1915 and 1916, and to the Jews by Lord Balfour in 1917. Both promises were made in exchange for military support against the Ottoman empire.

Of what relevance would a promise to the "Sharif of Mecca" (Saudi Arabia) be regarding land in the British Mandate being promised to "Arabs?" Was it promised to Mecca? So, it should be part of Saudi Arabia? Or, was it promised to an ethnic group in general? I've not read those letters, but I'd love to. Do you have a link to the text?

Where was this plot of land, and why would Egypt care if that land was promised to Jews or Muslims? Is there some reason an Islamic Country would be preferable over a Jewish one?

Let's read those letters, though, and see what they say. I'm sure you have a link, since you are quite familiar with their text, and not merely summaries provided by interested person.

I am not inclined to go into finely slicing yet another salami. Instead I will constrain myself to commenting on Great Britain's double dealing via quoting the author of the Balfour Declaration himself:

What I have never been able to understand is how [our policy] can be harmonised with the [Anglo-French] declaration, the Covenant, or the instructions to the Commission of Enquiry... In short, so far as Palestine is concerned, the Powers have made no statement of fact which is not admittedly wrong, and no declaration of policy which, at least in the letter, they have not always intended to violate.

The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant and the policy of the Allies is even more flagrant in the case of the 'independent nation' of Palestine than in that of the 'independent nation' of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country, though the American Commission has been going through the form of asking what they are. The four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.

[pErvinalia]

.

[Rum]

I bet they didn’t use a circumcised rocket. That explains it.

[Hermit]

Fools! Join the new generation of Moon landing conspiration theorists. Israel is feeding you lies because it suits its own interests. The moon is the new promised land. Here is what really happened:

[Jason]

Trump supports Israel's annexation of the Sea of Tranquility

[Hermit]

Trump supports Israel's annexation of the Sea of Tranquility

Not so fast. One thing at a time. Bibi hasn't finished annexing the West Bank yet, and after that he has to clear out and annex the Gaza Strip.

[Svartalf]

There are days I regret that the arab countries no longer have the balls to try and put israel back into the sewer pit it belongs in.

[Strontium Dog]

You can't help being a massive racist.

[Brian Peacock]

The you go folks. It's official. Criticising Israel is racist - but of course, so it pointing this out, apparently.

[Forty Two]

There are days I regret that the arab countries no longer have the balls to try and put israel back into the sewer pit it belongs in.

What should the Arab countries do in order put Israel "back" into the "sewer pit?"

[Strontium Dog]

The you go folks. It's official. Criticising Israel is racist - but of course, so it pointing this out, apparently.

Criticising Israel is not necessarily racist.

Advocating the destruction of the world's sole Jewish state, the Middle East's only democracy, by its Arab neighbours, revolting regimes, all of whom persecute and murder women and homosexuals, with the inevitable mass murder of Jews that would follow, is very definitely racist - not to mention, many other -ists also.

Of course, even if the antisemite wet dream happened and Israel was destroyed, this wouldn't end subjugation of the Palestinians. After all, more Palestinians have been killed by other Arabs than by Israel.

[Svartalf]

Religion is a plague, states based on it are plague sores that need to be cured.

[Forty Two]

Religion is a plague, states based on it are plague sores that need to be cured.

Yep. Agreed. Let's make a rule that Israel, and every Muslim and Christian country, must separate temple, mosque and church from State. Fair?

Islam - a false and immoral set of ideas which deserves zero respect and should be criticized openly and consistently. Agreed?