Change the name of Israel

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:00 am

"When the hell will someone in this government tell the public that Israel is a country of all its citizens," Sela wrote on Instagram. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israels's Prime Minister for the past ten years, replied that Israel is "the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people." Maybe it's just me, but I feel The Prime Minister's reply makes it really difficult to argue that Israel is OK with Muslims within its borders.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:56 am

Not just Muslims in a religious sense, but a clear message of ethnic superiority - Arabs, muslim, christian or anything, would always be second class citizens...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:04 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:56 am
Not just Muslims in a religious sense, but a clear message of ethnic superiority - Arabs, muslim, christian or anything, would always be second class citizens...
True, but the Israeli law is - in one way at least - akin to a 19th century French law Anatole France sarcastically remarked upon in 1894: "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Despite the apparent evenhandedness not all sections of society are even meant to be equally affected.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:20 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:56 am
Not just Muslims in a religious sense, but a clear message of ethnic superiority - Arabs, muslim, christian or anything, would always be second class citizens...
of course non jews are second class citizens, just try to get a civil marriage because you're christian, so you can't go in front of a rabbi and there are no priests available...
t
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:10 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:31 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:05 pm
Nobody is engaged in whattaboutism here.
You demonstrably are. The thread is about Israel, but you are going on about Arab countries. If you want to discuss Arab countries, start a thread.
The exchange with Hermit involved his cartoon where he analogized Israel to a dog which begins to intrude on Palestine's bed, eventually pushing him off altogether -- implying that Israel was an outsider who first tried to share the bed of Palestine (who was just sitting there minding its own business) and then eventually commandeered the entire thing.

I find it laughable that someone would bring up that supposed interaction between a supposed "Palestine" in the 1930s and 40s, and the State of Israel (and make that rather serious allegation against Israel in terms of a serious wrong committed against Palestine), and yet in responding, nobody is supposed to mention anything except for Israel.

Surely, you see that responding by clarify that the cartoon is not an accurate representation of what happened between the Muslims and the Jews over the last 70-odd years, and taking issue and opposing the concept displayed in the cartoon, is not "whattaboutism."

This constant "whattaboutism" refrain is just the latest attempt by some people who want to take or maintain inconsistent or irrational opinions to protect themselves from challenge on it. It's a way to keep specific examples on which concepts or ideas from being tested for consistency.
You've got to be taking the piss. You can't seriously believe you aren't engaged in whattaboutism.
I'm not. I'm explaining why his cartoon was wrong. That can't be done solely with reference to Israel, because the cartoon involved both Israel and the Palestinian authority - so the conduct of all parties concerned is relevant to that discussion. It's not just about Israel in that regard. You plainly don't know - as with most of your misuse of terms and fallacies - the meaning of the word "whattaboutism."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:04 pm
Image
This definitely isn't whattaboutism. :roll:
Not in the least -- it is no more "whattaboutism" than Hermit's cartoon.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:15 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:41 am

I'm sure he really does believe almost everything he spouts with utmost sincerety. There's a word for it. Richard Dawkins used it in the title of his polemic against beliefs in gods.

It's funny how many people who pride themselves for being rational, logical and objective can seriously and sincerely hold the most ridiculous beliefs.
:funny:
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:16 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:27 am
There is always some room in an argument for bringing examples of an opposing point of view that is a useful contrast. However, when used as the main driving force to argue a position, and ignoring salient points on the key issue (such as the behaviour of the current Israeli government) it becomes a boring, repetitive and defensive refrain.
Jim C - look at the cartoon Hermit posted, which was what the exchange was about. Is something more than Israel specifically mentioned, and central to the cartoon? Is there one flag or two? Who does the man represent? Who does the dog represent?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:20 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:16 pm
JimC wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:27 am
There is always some room in an argument for bringing examples of an opposing point of view that is a useful contrast. However, when used as the main driving force to argue a position, and ignoring salient points on the key issue (such as the behaviour of the current Israeli government) it becomes a boring, repetitive and defensive refrain.
Jim C - look at the cartoon Hermit posted, which was what the exchange was about. Is something more than Israel specifically mentioned, and central to the cartoon? Is there one flag or two? Who does the man represent? Who does the dog represent?
Yes, I know what you are getting at, but does Hermit (and others critical of Israel in this thread) use the debating method of "whataboutism" most (or all) of the time?

I think not.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:04 pm
Image
This definitely isn't whattaboutism. :roll:
Not in the least -- it is no more "whattaboutism" than Hermit's cartoon.
It's in the Israeli thread and it says "whattabout ethnic cleansing in Arab countries". It's pure whattaboutism.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:53 am

People are just trying to make you understand that ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries is an argument in favour of Israel's continued existence. You can call it whatever you like.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:43 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:04 pm
Image
This definitely isn't whattaboutism. :roll:
Not in the least -- it is no more "whattaboutism" than Hermit's cartoon.
It's in the Israeli thread and it says "whattabout ethnic cleansing in Arab countries". It's pure whattaboutism.
It's in the Israel thread, in which Hermit brought up the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians - see his flag cartoon, and he raised the issue of the changing demographics in certain years to prove that the cartoon was correct. It is not "whattaboutism" to portray counter-numbers that show a different dynamic.

Look - dude - if he brings up Israel as akin to a dog sneaking on a bed - in which the Palestinian community is peacefully minding their own business - and the dog supposedly grows in intrusiveness, until they finally push the Palestinians off the bed entirely - as if the Jews were outsiders and they have usurped the Muslims' bed -- then it is not fucking "whattaboutism" to show that the Jews were there on the bed the whole time, and that they did not push the Palestinians off the bed.

The issue was raised as to the dynamic between the two. It's horseshit to say that Hermit can bring up the Palestinians and compare Palestinian Muslims to Palestinian Jews and all that, but that nobody can mention the fucking Palestinians in response? Come off it.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:46 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:53 am
People are just trying to make you understand that ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries is an argument in favour of Israel's continued existence. You can call it whatever you like.
Also, that the recent numbers posted by Hermit related to the current borders of Israel only, whereas his 1930s and 1940s numbers include the West Bank, Gaza, Golan, parts of Syria and Jordan/Transjordan - and thus his numbers compare apples to oranges. But, somehow, pointing that out is now considered "whattaboutism."

It's funny how this stupid, misused terms come in sort of fashion trends. We don't get as many misused references to various logical fallacies anymore. Now it's whattaboutism that's all the rage. It's just a strategy to shut down conversation - everything that is not in this little approved box of mine is dismissed as whattaboutism.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:08 pm

"The evil British bombed Germany and killed loads of Germans!"
"Erm, Germany attacked our allies first, and they're Nazis, and they killed millions of Jews and gypsies."
"Whataboutery!!!11"
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:52 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:43 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:04 pm
Image
This definitely isn't whattaboutism. :roll:
Not in the least -- it is no more "whattaboutism" than Hermit's cartoon.
It's in the Israeli thread and it says "whattabout ethnic cleansing in Arab countries". It's pure whattaboutism.
It's in the Israel thread, in which Hermit brought up the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians - see his flag cartoon, and he raised the issue of the changing demographics in certain years to prove that the cartoon was correct. It is not "whattaboutism" to portray counter-numbers that show a different dynamic.

Look - dude - if he brings up Israel as akin to a dog sneaking on a bed - in which the Palestinian community is peacefully minding their own business - and the dog supposedly grows in intrusiveness, until they finally push the Palestinians off the bed entirely - as if the Jews were outsiders and they have usurped the Muslims' bed -- then it is not fucking "whattaboutism" to show that the Jews were there on the bed the whole time, and that they did not push the Palestinians off the bed.

The issue was raised as to the dynamic between the two. It's horseshit to say that Hermit can bring up the Palestinians and compare Palestinian Muslims to Palestinian Jews and all that, but that nobody can mention the fucking Palestinians in response? Come off it.
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