US Election 2020

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pErvinalia
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:48 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:37 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:17 am
Trump's a lot smarter than you. But I think this is something you would probably get in another context.

--//--

Disputes over definitions are bound to happen.

What would you like to achieve with a better definition? I don't want to lose the significance of what has happened, especially as it relates to assessing risk.

You seem to be looking for a way to minimize the significance of what happened. Is that fair?
I think it's bigger, but ok. I'll be clear. I think it is very significant, and it has motives that are very confusing.

I do understand the kind of tactics recently used on the BLM/Antifa protest, maybe with some of their knowledge, but not necessarily.
Untitled-1.png

The black bloc/antifa/anarchists organize with goals, tactics and strategies to get there. You can easily imagine conversations by rioters afterward, where they knew they had clearly accomplished their goals, or had not.

But here, we have grandmas for Trump. If the video is to be believed (possibly) one of the invaders (attendees?) said CLEARLY they were doing a revolution. No mask, by the way.
Antifa? Did you miss that it was right wing loons that stormed the Capitol?
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:52 am

I'm not denying the security threat. If they had caught Pence, I think they would have killed him (unless they were after another person for some reason)

The thing I don't get, is what the fuck were they thinking? No guns, but they are just going to grab Pence, drag him out and hang him up?

Grandmas for Turnip?
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:55 am

We don't have grandmas for Trump, that's a mischaracterization.

We have a violent assault on officials going through the motions of confirming Biden's win. In what way does that not satisfy the meaning of insurrection?
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:57 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:55 am
We don't have grandmas for Trump, that's a mischaracterization.

We have a violent assault on officials going through the motions of confirming Biden's win. In what way does that not satisfy the meaning of insurrection?
Grandmas for Trump was one of the groups that insurrected. They were in the buildings, one staying with the reporter (Jeremy whassisname)

I'm not saying anything about it other than, what?
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Hermit wrote:
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Trump supporters are fundamentally racist.

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Re: US Election 2020

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:00 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:52 am
I'm not denying the security threat. If they had caught Pence, I think they would have killed him (unless they were after another person for some reason)

The thing I don't get, is what the fuck were they thinking? No guns, but they are just going to grab Pence, drag him out and hang him up?
I agree. Without guns it was a fairly lame insurrection/terrorism attempt. I'm not sure they'll leave their guns at home next time, though.
Grandmas for Turnip?
Another Cunt non-sequitur?
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:12 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:52 am
I'm not denying the security threat. If they had caught Pence, I think they would have killed him (unless they were after another person for some reason)

The thing I don't get, is what the fuck were they thinking? No guns, but they are just going to grab Pence, drag him out and hang him up?

Grandmas for Turnip?
Okay, but it's possible to have that discussion without minimizing the nature of the assualt.

Insurrection just doesn't require what you're implying here.
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:16 am

I always thought it would require deadly force, and a plan.

Grandmas for Trump being in the building, to me, suggests that some of the people in that fracas don't know what was going on.

It's ok with me if all the ones who did were on the Republican side (that's who the large crowd was) but if Turnip did this, he sure as hell didn't 'win'.

I guess I can't even see how he could have. If they had hanged someone, I think it would be worse (for Turnip) than it is.
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:24 am

Of course many, maybe most were in over their heads and definitely operating without a clear plan. But neither knowing what you're doing or having a plan are required for an insurrection.

Consider a discussion about defining terrorism as an example. According to some experts an act can only qualify as terrorism if it is destined to fail to achieve the terrorists larger aims. Obviously we will see many terrorists between total losers and near nation builders. But they are all terrorists...
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by JimC » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:29 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:56 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:18 am
Apparently they wanted to hang Mike Pence (and perhaps others). Not sure if that's insurrection or terrorism.
Do you think you could hang him, without bringing any guns? Was this coordinated online like that 'network enabled anarchy' white paper described?

It doesn't look reasonable to me. It looks like lots of assholes were looking for general mayhem there, but when you want to hang one of the most protected people on the planet, do you bring a gun? Or your fancy horn hat?
So, they get an out because they were incompetent in making realistic steps to make their stated aims (like hanging Pence, and stopping the democratic process) actually happen.

Perhaps, Cunt, you would prefer much more competent insurrectionist murderers...
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 am

Hang em all.

Once you did, I'm still wondering WTF.

It isn't that I would prefer competence, I don't know who had a goal, what the goal was, or how the mob was being used.

Or was it just a mob?

Hopefully more will come out, other than just new legislation, I mean.
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I don't want to forget this enlightening quote by our prestigious and sage member...
Hermit wrote:
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Trump supporters are fundamentally racist.

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Re: US Election 2020

Post by rainbow » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:53 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:00 am
Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:52 am
I'm not denying the security threat. If they had caught Pence, I think they would have killed him (unless they were after another person for some reason)

The thing I don't get, is what the fuck were they thinking? No guns, but they are just going to grab Pence, drag him out and hang him up?
I agree. Without guns it was a fairly lame insurrection/terrorism attempt. I'm not sure they'll leave their guns at home next time, though.
These people are completely nuts. They actually believed that Trump would bring in the Army and declare Martial Law.

The Pentagon however didn't co-operate.
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:03 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 am
...I don't know who had a goal, what the goal was...
The goal was to stop a critical step of a democratic process (For the purpose of this discussion I am leaving out considerations about to what extent US institutions and processes can be regarded as democratic) of handing the presidency of a democratically (repeat above parenthetical note on democracy here) elected president to his democratically (repeat above parenthetical note on democracy here) successor by force.

I do not intend to participate in a debate about the extent the storming of the Capitol constitutes an insurrection or coup. It is a semantic quibble. I am, however, firmly of the opinion that had the invaders succeeded in reinstalling Trump as president for another two years, their success would be the death knell for what passes as democracy in the USA.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: US Election 2020

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:28 am

Cunt wrote:Hang em all.

Once you did, I'm still wondering WTF.

It isn't that I would prefer competence, I don't know who had a goal, what the goal was, or how the mob was being used.

Or was it just a mob?

Hopefully more will come out, other than just new legislation, I mean.
Wasn't their goal obvious enough? They were dissatisfied with the election result. They believed they could stop the certification of electoral college votes and, as Trump put it on the day, they marched on the Capitol to encourage Pence and other 'weak Republicans' to support Cruz et al's attempts to negate the outcome of the ballot.

The thing about that is: even though Trump's political cabal and the crowd thought that votes for Biden should be classed as illegitimate, by attempting to negate the ballot, and in so doing to install Trump for a second term regardless of the general election result, they weren't just intending to remove some votes from the Georgia or Pennsylvania etc count - the votes for Biden - but to effectively, functionally disenfranchise all voters in those states and consequently in the nation as a whole. When you move to negate an election result, an election that is to all intents and purposes secure and fair, you break the system for every voter - even those who agree with you.

What do you think is the definition of a 'better' or 'fair' or 'good' society the people who attempted this were actually working towards? What do you think would have happened if Pelosi had been in her office when the mob arrived or if they'd bumped into Pence on the stairs? What do you think would have happened if they'd succeed in their goal to force events in such a way that the party in power got to install the next president regardless of the election result?

There was a coordinated effort to get into the building and they battled with the thin blue line for two hours to achieve it. 6 dead, among them 2 police officers - one of who was bludgeoned with a fire extinguisher. This wasn't just some Grandmas getting carried away in the moment. This was an organised attempt to break democratic processes and institutions and, as I said, to negate an election and disenfranchise an entire population in order to install a particular individual on the throne.

OK, so the rioters and their enablers didn't achieve their aims, but their actions are not defined by their success, or failure, but by their intent and motivation, and by their ultimate goal and by the steps they took to achieve it on the day.
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Re: US Election 2020

Post by NineBerry » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:02 am

You don't need guns if you have a lot of people. You acquire weapons (guns and other weapons) on the go.

It's the zombie tactic. How can one zombie beat a whole squad of soldiers? He bites one of them. Two Zombies. Four Zombies. And then you have a squad of zombie soldiers.

The weapons they used to enter the building were also acquired on the go. There's the scene where protesters use a shield taken from police to smash a window to get access. You see people using parts of furniture as weapons and to create blockades. Maybe even the zip ties you see on some of the photos were taken from Capitol police and not brought to the protest from outside.

It's much easier to sell a revolt that uses make-shift weapons like acquired police batons, furniture parts and a make-shift gallows as "a spontaneous eruption of popular will". It's helpful to say "This wasn't a premediated coup. The PEOPLE were so ENRAGEDd by THE STEAL that they on their own stormed the Capitol and restored TRUTH and democracy!!!". Looks a lot better in the news and in history books.

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Re: US Election 2020

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:08 am

Except when the dumb fuckers lose.
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