Starbucks coffee. Any colour but black.

[Brian Peacock]

Rum,

You are REMINDED that it is best to avoid calling fellow forum members Racist Cunts. Please try and avoid doing so in future.

Yer Mods.

[pErvinalia]

42 selectively editing history again.

Byrd initially compiled a mixed record on the subjects of race relations and desegregation.[59] While he initially voted against civil rights legislation, in 1959 he hired one of the Capitol's first black congressional aides, and he also took steps to integrate the United States Capitol Police for the first time since Reconstruction.[60] Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62] and would change it if he had the opportunity. Byrd also said that his views changed dramatically after his teenage grandson was killed in a 1982 traffic accident, which put him in a deep emotional valley. "The death of my grandson caused me to stop and think," said Byrd, adding he came to realize that African-Americans love their children as much as he does his.[63] During debate in 1983 over the passage of the law creating the Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday, Byrd grasped the symbolism of the day and its significance to his legacy, telling members of his staff "I'm the only one in the Senate who must vote for this bill".[60]

Hey, whaddya reckon the chances are 42 will ignore your post?

Oh, look, he already has. Spent over two hours and ten posts studiously circumventing yours.

Don't point it out to him, though. He'll go all huffy if you do.

Yep.

[pErvinalia]

However, there is no evidence of him being a racist.

It is truly astounding that you can say shit like this with a straight face. I mean seriously, you're maybe one rank below Galaxian and Superuniverse on the Crazy Scale.

I take that back. You're every bit as nutty as they are.

(Hey buddy. )

[mistermack]

Seriously, the coffee in Melbourne specialist cafes is fucking unbelievably good, and you often have a wide range to choose from. We are the barista, hipster capital of Australia, nay, the World!

They grow coffee in Australia. Which isn't surprising given the climate. You just need some frost free highlands to grow the best quality, and there are many acres of that.
What was lacking was peasants who can work for pennies to pick and sort the beans, but there are machines that can do a good job on that now. I would expect to see a lot more Australian coffee on the market in the future.

http://www.midcoast.com.au/~keno/Coffee/Homegrown.html

[Forty Two]

Yay! A thread of white people talking about how the discrimination they don't suffer from in society is no big deal.

Maybe in Ireland blacks are singled out in this way, but in the US, I assure, you, loitering without being a customer of the store is frowned upon regardless of race, color, creed or national origin.

Loitering for two minutes is a problem!?

I don't know that it was only 2 minutes. Is that what the story says? My understanding was that the employee only asked them to make a purchase when he had asked for the bathroom key. So she asked if they were going to make a purchase. That's normal. I don't even wait to be asked. If I go to a filling station for a bathroom break, I buy a coke or a stick of gum. It's customary. Everybody knows it's the general rule.

[rachelbean]

I've gone into a Starbucks and used the bathroom before buying anything (as peeing was my top priority) and have never had a problem. Definitely never seen the cops called on anyone, it was a ridiculous and unnecessary escalation.

[Forty Two]

42 selectively editing history again.

Byrd initially compiled a mixed record on the subjects of race relations and desegregation.[59] While he initially voted against civil rights legislation, in 1959 he hired one of the Capitol's first black congressional aides, and he also took steps to integrate the United States Capitol Police for the first time since Reconstruction.[60] Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62] and would change it if he had the opportunity. Byrd also said that his views changed dramatically after his teenage grandson was killed in a 1982 traffic accident, which put him in a deep emotional valley. "The death of my grandson caused me to stop and think," said Byrd, adding he came to realize that African-Americans love their children as much as he does his.[63] During debate in 1983 over the passage of the law creating the Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday, Byrd grasped the symbolism of the day and its significance to his legacy, telling members of his staff "I'm the only one in the Senate who must vote for this bill".[60]

Hey, whaddya reckon the chances are 42 will ignore your post?

Oh, look, he already has. Spent over two hours and ten posts studiously circumventing yours.

Don't point it out to him, though. He'll go all huffy if you do.

It's a pretty good chance, since I have pErvin on my ignore list, and I am trying not to open his posts. Why would I? He hardly ever responds without insults, namecalling and personal attacks.

I did not "studiously circumvent" any post.

Sure, Robert Byrd later in life said he says he changed his views. However, he was an actual member of the Klan. He was not only a member, though, he was a high officer, and a recruiter. He held views about wanting "Old Glory" (the US Flag) to go down in flames, rather than serve next to a black man in the armed forces. Byrd didn't just vote "no" on the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he filibustered it for 14 hours (at the time, to filibuster you had to actually stand up in the Senate and keep talking, holding the floor, to keep the filibuster. They did not have the "announce a filibuster, and hold a vote to end it" rule the pussies in the Senate use now.... When he did that, he was not a young indoctrinated southerner who simply made some youthful indiscretion - he was 46 years old. And, he hated blacks enough at that time to stand in the Senate for 14 hours and support race discrimination.

In 1997, he gave some advice to new politicians in the South - "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena." That sounds like a coldly calculated assessment of political risk, not a moral judgement. Byrd just downplayed his segregationist views in order to advance in Washington and move toward the mainstream. He was almost 70 at that time.

It was only later that racism became a liability for ambitious Democratic politicians. In his own memoir, he he describes white ethnics as "former minorities" who "sought no special status," and contrasted them with modern minorities who "push and shove and demand something for nothing." That was published in 2015, when he was in his late 80s. In that same memoir, he also ridiculed "multiculturalism" and compared cities to "the jungles of Africa."

So, if we want to look at his alleged "conversion" which would have occurred some time in his retirement age decades, we have to do that in light of what he said and did throughout his life.

[Forty Two]

In the future, if you feel I have not addressed a point that you want addressed, please prompt me to do so. Like every other person on this forum, there are times I (a) don't see a thread or post, (b) address other posts I find more interesting or which are higher up on my "Your posts" list, or (c) just don't get back to the forum for a bit, among other reasons.

What pErvin posted here about Senator Robert Byrd was not some sort of "gotcha" that found me out, so I am running from it. The guy was a racist, who not only did what some here accuse Donald Trump of doing, which is harboring racist thoughts or wanting to keep America white -- he acted upon it. He joined the Ku Klux Klan and recruited for it, and he rose to officer level in the organization - he knew what the Klan was up to back in those days, which was some seriously racist and seriously criminal stuff, and he not only participated in the organization but ran it in a managerial sense. He took that belief system, the belief that blacks were from the jungle and not fit to work or serve next to white people, and used that to oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1964, because he was in favor of state and local governments being able to discriminate against black people, and he was in favor of restaurants having whites only signs, and buses sending people like Rosa Parks to the back of the bus.

He felt that was so important that he not only cast a "no" vote for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, when he was 46 years old - not a young man - not a dumb kid -- but a seasoned politician. He had been a Senator for 11 years at that point. A US Senator - for 11 years - and he stood up like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington in -- for 14 hours -- 14 straight ours - arguing vociferously in favor of keeping race discrimination in places of public accommodation - like restaurants, trains, buses, airplanes, hotels, bathrooms, etc. -- racially segregated, and in favor of race discrimination in public and private employment.

In 1993, Byrd opposed the effort to allow homosexuals to serve in the military. That was 1993. Not 1953. 1993. In 1996, before the passage of the Defense of Marriage Act, he said, "The drive for same-sex marriage is, in effect, an effort to make a sneak attack on society by encoding this aberrant behavior in legal form before society itself has decided it should be legal. Let us defend the oldest institution, the institution of marriage between male and female as set forth in the Holy Bible."

When racism and segregation had already been defeated, and it was obvious there was no going back, he made his incredible transformation..... what a guy. After it was clear that he lost his bid to keep gays out of the military, he argued against the federal marriage amendment to the Constitution, which seems good until you note that he voted in favor of cloture on that ... i.e. a no vote was in favor of keeping the federal marriage amendment from going to the floor of the Senate for a vote, but a "yes" vote, as he cast, was in favor of getting that bill to the floor so it could possibly pass.

Note also, that he did not just oppose the Civil Rights Act - he strongly opposed the Voting Rights Act. He opposed anti-poverty legislation, too. He stated, “we can take the people out of the slums, but we cannot take the slums out of the people." He voted against both Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas, the only two black Supreme Court Justices.

[Forty Two]

42 selectively editing history again.

Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62]

If you look up both of the citations there for "Beginning in the 1970s..." (footnotes 20 and 61) Neither of them provide any indication that in the 1970s he renounced his earlier views. that statement of regret (footnote 62) relates to comments he made in the 1990s, when he was over 75 years old.

Note - the reason that I raised this issue of Robert Byrd was to address the issue of whether one can be a good person and support a racist. Trump has been accused of being a racist, but nothing that Trump has been identified as doing (like, calling for a wall on the border, and barring illegal immigrants, or barring immigrants from some predominently Muslim countries) is anywhere close to what Robert Byrd did.

Come on - an open Klan member and officer? Filibuster the Civil Rights Act? Vote against the Voting Rights Act? Vote against gays in the military (in 1993)? Vote against black Supreme Court Justice nominees? And be openly quoted as calling blacks "from the jungle," and not being fit to serve or work next to white people? And, being willing to see "Old Glory trampled in the dirt" and destroyed forever than see any part of segregation ended?

Oh, he apologized when he was 75 years old, eh?

[Forty Two]

42 selectively editing history again.

Byrd initially compiled a mixed record on the subjects of race relations and desegregation.[59] While he initially voted against civil rights legislation, in 1959 he hired one of the Capitol's first black congressional aides, and he also took steps to integrate the United States Capitol Police for the first time since Reconstruction.[60] Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62] and would change it if he had the opportunity. Byrd also said that his views changed dramatically after his teenage grandson was killed in a 1982 traffic accident, which put him in a deep emotional valley. "The death of my grandson caused me to stop and think," said Byrd, adding he came to realize that African-Americans love their children as much as he does his.[63] During debate in 1983 over the passage of the law creating the Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday, Byrd grasped the symbolism of the day and its significance to his legacy, telling members of his staff "I'm the only one in the Senate who must vote for this bill".[60]

Hey, whaddya reckon the chances are 42 will ignore your post?

Oh, look, he already has. Spent over two hours and ten posts studiously circumventing yours.

Don't point it out to him, though. He'll go all huffy if you do.

Yep.

Or, one of you could have acted like a normal human being, and prompted me by asking "42, did you see this? How do you think that impacts the issue of good people supporting racists?"

[laklak]

I'm with 42 on this, Byrd was as vile a piece of old Southern Democrat racist shit as Strom Thurmond, George Wallace, or Lester "Axehandle" Maddox. Maybe you need to be Southern and of a certain age to recognize it, but his later disavowment of his racist views was done with a nod and wink and we all knew it. He didn't just join the Klan, he established a new chapter and was made Grand Cyclops. He hired a black staffer, good for him, darkies are supposed to work for white people. He was a perfect example of a well-known Southern trope - Big Daddy. He even called himself that on occasion. He claimed his opposition to the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965 was based on States Rights. Just like the Civil War, eh?

All of his ilk apologized for their previous racist views, and usually credited Jebus with their conversion (as Byrd did). It was just ordinary, venal politics, I guarantee you they never actually changed their minds. They were dyed in the wool racists and segregationists no matter what pieties they mouthed later to stay in office.

[pErvinalia]

42 selectively editing history again.

Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62]

If you look up both of the citations there for "Beginning in the 1970s..." (footnotes 20 and 61) Neither of them provide any indication that in the 1970s he renounced his earlier views. that statement of regret (footnote 62) relates to comments he made in the 1990s, when he was over 75 years old.

Note - the reason that I raised this issue of Robert Byrd was to address the issue of whether one can be a good person and support a racist.

But if the testimony of Byrd is to be believed, he's no longer a racist. So you are comparing an alleged racist to a non-racist. Your comparison is flawed. Why would he recant stuff he doesn't believe in when he's retired and waiting to die? That would seem to be the point where he no longer had to hold his tongue and could let fly with anything he wanted.

[pErvinalia]

42 selectively editing history again.

Byrd initially compiled a mixed record on the subjects of race relations and desegregation.[59] While he initially voted against civil rights legislation, in 1959 he hired one of the Capitol's first black congressional aides, and he also took steps to integrate the United States Capitol Police for the first time since Reconstruction.[60] Beginning in the 1970s, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation.[20][61] Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964[62] and would change it if he had the opportunity. Byrd also said that his views changed dramatically after his teenage grandson was killed in a 1982 traffic accident, which put him in a deep emotional valley. "The death of my grandson caused me to stop and think," said Byrd, adding he came to realize that African-Americans love their children as much as he does his.[63] During debate in 1983 over the passage of the law creating the Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday, Byrd grasped the symbolism of the day and its significance to his legacy, telling members of his staff "I'm the only one in the Senate who must vote for this bill".[60]

Hey, whaddya reckon the chances are 42 will ignore your post?

Oh, look, he already has. Spent over two hours and ten posts studiously circumventing yours.

Don't point it out to him, though. He'll go all huffy if you do.

Yep.

Or, one of you could have acted like a normal human being, and prompted me by asking "42, did you see this? How do you think that impacts the issue of good people supporting racists?"

Why the fuck would we do that? You've got a long history of ignoring inconvenient posts.

[pErvinalia]

I'm with 42 on this, Byrd was as vile a piece of old Southern Democrat racist shit as Strom Thurmond, George Wallace, or Lester "Axehandle" Maddox. Maybe you need to be Southern and of a certain age to recognize it, but his later disavowment of his racist views was done with a nod and wink and we all knew it. He didn't just join the Klan, he established a new chapter and was made Grand Cyclops. He hired a black staffer, good for him, darkies are supposed to work for white people. He was a perfect example of a well-known Southern trope - Big Daddy. He even called himself that on occasion. He claimed his opposition to the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965 was based on States Rights. Just like the Civil War, eh?

All of his ilk apologized for their previous racist views, and usually credited Jebus with their conversion (as Byrd did). It was just ordinary, venal politics, I guarantee you they never actually changed their minds. They were dyed in the wool racists and segregationists no matter what pieties they mouthed later to stay in office.

So why recant when he's old and retired? Why not just tell everyone how he really feels?

[laklak]

Dunno. Legacy?

He wasn't wrong on everything, for instance he generally opposed foreign military interventions, including the Vietnam war. But he was most definitely an old school Southern Democrat, with all the baggage that entails.