Trade Wars and how to win 'em

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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Rum » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:06 pm

Well that's just naive. I know you think the sun shines out the the Netherlands arsehole, but to think they treated local native peoples as equals it frankly ridiculous. The Dutch were hated in the Dutch East Indies with a real vengeance. Their history in Indonesia is one of repression, rebellion and a great deal of slaughter.

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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Svartalf » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:12 pm

by the fact they were highly engaged in multinational trade and made great profit on their crafts, highly regulated by well established and powerful guilds which they sold all over Europe?
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:13 pm

Rum wrote:Well that's just naive. I know you think the sun shines out the the Netherlands arsehole, but to think they treated local native peoples as equals it frankly ridiculous. The Dutch were hated in the Dutch East Indies with a real vengeance. Their history in Indonesia is one of repression, rebellion and a great deal of slaughter.
Were they? The Dutch were in more places than Indonesia. The Dutch presence in Indonesia was minimal with the locals running their islands. It was only in the 20th century everything in Indonesia like India went tits up. The government of the time reneged on a whole host of agreements which lead to the revolution after WW2 in which there were massive amount of killings.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:18 am

Rum wrote:The Dutch traders were not strictly speaking capitalists in my view. They sailed out to remote parts of the world. bought stuff dirt cheap and sold it for huge profits back in Europe. They were profiteering exploitative traders, but they didn't directly exploit labour - one of the key features of classic capitalism. Though of course they did when they set up local producers in what one might call a neo-colonial fashion. They were probably the best exploiters of local labour though.
They weren't capitalists, because they were mercantilists. But mercantilism was the precursor to capitalism. This is all pretty irrelevant anyway, as the Netherlands is a largely capitalist society.
wiki wrote:The Netherlands has a market-based mixed economy, ranking 17th of 177 countries according to the Index of Economic Freedom.[3]
Socialist countries aren't economically free. But this is from Wiki, so it's probably fake news. :roll: Royal Dutch Shell is definitely socialist.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:49 am

Sorry pErv according to which definition? Why are not socialist countries economic free. You are trying to impose the strict socialist/communist doctrine here. After the war an adaptation of socialism was developed in Northern Europe. The Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands developed it. It allowed a certain amount of capitalism but with strong safe guards. The social state was created with UHC, education and social services as the corner stones. Businesses were strictly controlled to avoid excesses and exploitation. Trade Unions were allowed to exist and no business could ban them. This is still true. Companies over a certain size (100 employees) had to have works councils which were given legal powers.
Education is still strictly controlled. We have schools that are exceptions because of religion (this is 50's remember) but they had to perform to meet this Education Inspectorates high demands otherwise they closed. This very true of muslim schools who find it very difficult to reach the standards. We have only one muslim secondary school in the whole of the country and that is under threat of being closed.

BTW working for Shell has still very many benefits that other companies dont have although it is much less than back in the 60's.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:56 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Sorry pErv according to which definition? Why are not socialist countries economic free.
Because people aren't allowed to invest in or produce what they want.
You are trying to impose the strict socialist/communist doctrine here.
I'm just applying the definition.
After the war an adaptation of socialism was developed in Northern Europe. The Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands developed it. It allowed a certain amount of capitalism but with strong safe guards. The social state was created with UHC, education and social services as the corner stones. Businesses were strictly controlled to avoid excesses and exploitation. Trade Unions were allowed to exist and no business could ban them. This is still true. Companies over a certain size (100 employees) had to have works councils which were given legal powers.
Education is still strictly controlled. We have schools that are exceptions because of religion (this is 50's remember) but they had to perform to meet this Education Inspectorates high demands otherwise they closed. This very true of muslim schools who find it very difficult to reach the standards. We have only one muslim secondary school in the whole of the country and that is under threat of being closed.

BTW working for Shell has still very many benefits that other companies dont have although it is much less than back in the 60's.
That's a mixed economy social democracy.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:09 am

"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:17 am

when China tops the list, and Ireland is in the top 10, you have to wonder about the 'socialism' criteria used and whether the journo was not writing with his arse
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:47 am

Svartalf wrote:when China tops the list, and Ireland is in the top 10, you have to wonder about the 'socialism' criteria used and whether the journo was not writing with his arse
So China does not qualify? Ireland is an odd country I agree but what the article says about it is true.

It is exactly what I am trying get at; definitions.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:02 am

China is a pure capitalist oligarchy with a single party government, if that qualifies as socialist then thee only thing that's missing for the realisation of the Marxist dream is the realisation of an international world governement
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:26 am

You never know do you?
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Tero » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:30 pm

people in farming fear tariffs as retaliation to steel and aluminum tariff
Nebraska farmers concerned about potential tariffs
Posted: Mar 20, 2018 6:07 PM CDT
Updated: Mar 20, 2018 6:07 PM CDT


I visited Firth this afternoon and met with a local farmer who said he is concerned that potential tariffs from international countries will have a negative impact on his, and other Nebraska farmers', livelihoods.

Meet Nathan Dorn.

He's lived in Nebraska his entire life and has a long family history of farming, specifically cattle and grain.

Right now, he's concerned about a potential economic downturn.

Several weeks ago president trump announced tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum.

While no countries have said they'll implement retailitory tariffs, the thought that they might has farmers rattled.

"We're really just hopeful right now that this just doesn't happen. We're hoping that everyone comes to their senses and people realize that trade wars aren't easy wars to win. Nobody wants to fight a trade war, especially here in rural Nebraska, said Nathan Dorn owner of Dorn Farms."

Agriculture is a huge part of Nebraska's economy.

In 2016, Nebraska exported 6.6 *billion* dollars of agricultural goods.

Topping that list?

Soybeans, corn, and beef.

Dorn says any tariffs from outside powers will not help everyday Americans.

"If we lose even a fraction of that it's really going to affect main street Nebraska. It's going to affect daycare centers; it's going to affect hospitals and healthcare workers."

The Nebraska farm bureau has similar concerns.

Jay Rempe is the senior economist for NFB.

He says if tariffs were put in place, Nebraska would be poorly off.

"I think that Nebraska might be a little worse off just because two commodities, beef and soybeans, that are big export products for the state of Nebraska, seem to be caught in the middle of some of this tariff talk and retaliatory measures that'll be discussed," said Rempe.

Again, *no* foreign countries have announced tariffs on U.S. agricultural goods, but farmers across Nebraska are having the conversation so they can try and plan accordingly.

However, as you heard Nathan Dorn say, they *are* hopeful that there will be no tariffs on their product.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:36 pm

Tero wrote:people in farming fear tariffs as retaliation to steel and aluminum tariff
Are they right or wrong? I thought you were on the left, aren't you? Isn't free trade and low tariffs a way for American companies to exploit low wages and standards overseas so that they can import cheap products to the American market, thus undercutting American factories and farms which cannot produce products as cheaply and as unregulatedly as they can in Asia?

Huh... Some Democrats have welcomed the tariffs, most of them representing Rust Belt states such as Senators Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Sherrod Brown of Ohio and Conor Lamb of Pennsylvania. Are they wrong? Let's just be clear that these Democrats are way off base, and are supporting a measure that will hurt their constituents. Do you agree? No no...it's probably Trump who will hurt the constituents, but the Democrats who support the tariffs aren't hurting the constituents. Somehow, that will be the case, yes?

They probably should switch to the GOP now, since as explained in this article, the Democrat base is no longer in the working class. https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/13/politics ... index.html

Polls now consistently find that Democratic voters are more supportive than Republicans of free trade.
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 pm

Way to miss Tero's point, which is very straightforward. American exports of wheat, corn and soy beans may be hit with retaliatory tariffs by European and other nations, thus directly hitting their sales. It is quite possible that the overall losses to the US economy from this (and consumers paying more for goods made of steel) will significantly outweigh any benefits to the economy vis the US steel industry. The law of unintended consequences is not something Trump understands... No need for blustering waffle about left vs right ideologies, and who supports free trade or not, just standard economics 101...
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Re: Trade Wars and how to win 'em

Post by Svartalf » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:29 pm

Merkin wheat, corn, and soy are largely GMO and thus forbidden on EU territory...
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