Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

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Forty Two
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Tero wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:36 pm
Here we go
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... reddit.com
The dirt will come out.
Oh, that's hilarious! They want his tax returns? LOL.

Everyone is familiar with the 1040 and Schedules, right? What "dirt" do you think is in there?

Has it ever occurred to you that politicians gave out their tax returns no problem because there really isn't anything anyone can tell from them? I mean, fuck, how naive are people? You'd be able to tell how much gross and adjusted income/taxable income Trump declared, and you'd see a schedule of businesses from which he drew income. But there is no way to audit or examine those returns without the 18,000,000 pages of receipts and bank account statements and general forensic accounting that the IRS has to do when they audit a return.

This is just a political ploy by Pelosi et al - they stuck their fingers in the air and judged that Democrats think Trump should release his tax returns, and get all giddy at the prospect, so they are making a pointless effort to get his tax returns to rally the base.

So, if there isn't much anyone can tell from them, why does Trump not want to release them? Easy - because his INDIVIDUAL tax returns minimize income, so as to pay the least amount of tax, and if folks see them, then they will question whether he is "really" a billionaire, etc. And, they will not know how to read them, or how to verify the numbers, and you'll get article after article by numb-nut and politically partisan journalists writing hit pieces based on half-understandings of the tax system.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:25 pm

Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:23 pm
trump leave now.jpg
It's sooooo beyond the pale to suggest that political adversaries be put in jail, dontchaknow that Tero?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:26 pm

Animavore wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:21 pm
As much as I'd love to see the criminal president and his scumbag friends go behind bars where they belong we all know these people are above the law.
Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up!

Oh, wait.. I remember.. not supposed to call for political adversaries to be locked up.

Oh, wait... that only applies when talking about Democrats. Democrats never do anything wrong.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:34 pm


Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:57 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:26 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:30 pm
What I simply cannot understand is that Americans (at least Trump supporters) can see nothing wrong with their leader paying regular hush money to prostitutes, whether or not such actions skate below a legal line.

Leadership was once about gravitas, dignity and honourable actions...
They weren't prostitutes.

Leadership was once about the appearance of gravitas, dignity and honorable actions. However, what would one say about John F. Kennedy's dalliances. And, he absolutely paid hush money to women he banged, which were legion.

I don't know, I guess I view paying a woman to keep quiet about an affair to be certainly not "good," in the Sunday School sense of the word. But, it's "meh" in the sense of what powerful people do day to day. Trump got caught. That's the only difference. It's not as if the other possible candidates for President didn't have their own dalliances.

And, this whole thing that Cohen said this was done to help the campaign. So what? Not all expenses that help or are intended to help the campaign are campaign expenditures. Under the "irrespective" test, this kind of expenditure that would exist whether or not there was a campaign, are not campaign contributions. Rich guy celebrity pays off porn star to try to hide it from his wife, family, and the public. Case close. It's that simple. Of course, the prosecutors want to spin it the other way - they're trying to get Trump, and that's the best they have. Only, the best they have is good enough to force Cohen into a plea deal because he himself had a fuck-ton of other crimes that he could not get out of, and he'd be looking at 10+ years in jail. That's the reality.

The whole idea that this is a campaign finance violation on the part of Trump is absurd. And, one of the big red flags folks should look at is that the Federal Election Commission hasn't bothered with it.
Image Who did you get this lot from? It beggars belief to think that paying two women to keep schtumn just before an election, one of them for the second time, is not directly related to that election.
It probably is directly related to the election. So are a lot of things that are also personal expenses that would exist irrespective of the election. People pay others to keep their mouths shut all the time, and there are many reasons to do so.

The thing is, not everything "directly related to the election" is an illegal campaign finance payment. Under the irrespective test, if the expense would exist irrespective of the election, then (even if it does benefit the election), it is still not a campaign expense.

And, since the payment is NOT ILLEGAL itself, even if you say "that was a campaign expense" then the mistake was not to report it. It's not that the expense should not legally have been undertaken, it's that the expense should have been made with campaign funds and recorded as such. Failure to do that is punished by payment of a fine. It happens all the time. It's not a big deal.
Commission regulations provide a test, called the “irrespective test,” to differentiate legitimate campaign and officeholder expenses from personal expenses. Under the “irrespective test,” personal use is any use of funds in a campaign account of a candidate (or former candidate) to fulfill a commitment, obligation or expense of any person that would exist irrespective of the candidate’s campaign or responsibilities as a federal officeholder.

More simply, if the expense would exist even in the absence of the candidacy or even if the officeholder were not in office, then the personal use ban applies.
https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and ... sonal-use/

So, you can see here - let's call it a proposed campaign expense, and Trump and the campaign sat there and said, well, this expense will benefit the campaign, so let's use campaign funds to pay for the confidentiality agreements. And, let's say they comply with the reporting requirements so that the expenditure is reported as a campaign expense. Media is scrutinizing every penny, so -- Headline on CNN: "Trump Uses Campaign Funds to Pay off Women to Keep Quiet about Sex" -- the article wold go into how Trump was basically embezzling from the campaign to pay off women with hush money, and yet those would be declared personal expenses, not campaign expenses, because the expense (rich guy celebrity businessman paying foff women to save his reputation and protect against embarrassment) was really his own personal expense, and not properly paid with campaign money.

Alternatively, they do what they did here - use his own personal money - not campaign money - to make a legal payment for a confidentiality agreement that has non-campaign reasons for being undertaken.

Which is proper?

Because, if you say how they did was improper, because it was a campaign expense - then what you are saying is that the check should have been written to stormy daniels FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN DIRECTLY - and reported - and then everything would have been just fine. Perfectly legal use of campaign money - to pay off women he fucked to keep their yaps shut.
OK, the payments were directly related to the election, because the election was looming, but they weren't directly related to the election, because he probably would have given the ladies the money anyway? So, how might we falsify this hypothesis?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:00 pm

Brian, you still seem to miss it.

There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign (or "directly related") must be paid with campaign funds, or is a campaign expense.

That's because expenses often are both "directly related to the campaign" AND directly related to the personal life of the candidate.

Campaign expenses must be paid with campaign money, and reported. Personal expenses must NOT be paid with campaign funds, but must be paid with personal funds.

The test used is the "irrespective test" -- if an expense would exist "irrespective of" the existence of the campaign, then even if it directly relates to and benefits the campaign, it's still a personal expense and cannot be paid with campaign funds. Paying with campaign funds would be a violation of FEC regulations.

For this to fail the "irrespective test," the FEC would have to find that Trump would not incur this expense but-for the existence of the campaign. I.e., that Trump would not pay women to keep their yaps shut, but for the existence of the campaign.

As stated in an article by the Atlantic - "The suggestion of hush money is easier to credit because it fits with a pattern from Trump in the past. Faced with the prospect of damaging revelations about his personal life, the otherwise parsimonious Trump has often paid out." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ey/550745/ The article is entitled Trump's "Long History With Hush Money" in order to cast doubt on any denial that Trump made such a payout.

So, that alone provides proof that even when not running for President, Trump pays women to keep mum about his sexual daliances.

If there was to be an investigation or prosecution of the Trump campaign or Trump for a violation in this regard - the prosecutor or the FEC would have to demonstrate that the expense was a campaign expense. Trump could present evidence that he would make the payment even if there was no campaign. The evidence would be his own testimony, and the testimony of others, and the prosecution would have to meet their burden of proof in showing that the expense is not one that would exist irrespective of the campaign.

How wold the allegation be falsified? The same way Trump would falsify the FEC's allegation (if there ever is one) that the payment was a campaign expense. Through documentary evidence and testimony.

Cohen might testify against Trump, perhaps, right? And, Cohen might say, Trump instructed me to go ahead and get the payments made, and he'd pay me back. I believed this was being done to help the campaign avoid embarrassing news coverage off the affairs. Trump might say that he certainly didn't want the embarrassment, but even if there was no campaign, a small payment like that - $130,000 - is something I wold pay just to avoid my wife finding out, and my kids, and I'm a celebrity and prominent businessman, so it benefits me personally and in my business life for this kind of thing not to be aired in public. I've entered into many confidentiality agreements in the past in various contexts, and these payments were no different.

And for the FEC to find, say ,that this payment was purely a campaign expense - that would have ripple effect throughout the campaign finance world. Candidates settle disputes more often than you think. And, just because this paymet was to cover up an affair, that doesn't mean the next settlement to cover up a business dispute or personal injury claim or something won't be treated the same way. Under the law, there is a strong policy to treat things the same - and things aren't made different because it's Trump rather than some other candidate.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:03 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:00 pm
Brian, you still seem to miss it.

There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign (or "directly related") must be paid with campaign funds, or is a campaign expense...
I'll just stop you there: So the American justice system which has just convicted Cohen on those exact grounds is a farce?
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:17 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:00 pm
Brian, you still seem to miss it.

There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign (or "directly related") must be paid with campaign funds, or is a campaign expense...
I'll just stop you there: So the American justice system which has just convicted Cohen on those exact grounds is a farce?
You stop me right there, after making a true statement? There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign must be paid with campaign funds or is a campaign expense -- because expenses that are related to the campaign but which also would exist "irrespective of" the campaign, are not campaign expenses. Why did you stop me there? Well, since you did - just confirm that you agree that I'm correct about the irrespective test.

I don't think it's farcical at all to have a system which does not convict you, or presume guilt, just because someone else pleads guilty to something. A system that would let prosecutors obtain plea deals with witnesses, and not just use that person as a witness for the prosecution in another case, but actually presume guilt of another person because of it - that would be a farce.

Here is Cohen's official plea agreement -- https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/ ... WE8dw4k/v0 Would you be so kind as to tell me, exactly, what you think this says he pled guilty to? Here is the "Information" that Cohen said was substantially correct: https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/ ... 2qnRknE/v0
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:37 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:23 pm
trump leave now.jpg
It's sooooo beyond the pale to suggest that political adversaries be put in jail, dontchaknow that Tero?
I was being very kind. He has achieved all he is going to achieve. All down hill from now. It will be ugly.

If you were Trump, would you not rather be golfing than facing congress?
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:45 pm

Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:37 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:23 pm
trump leave now.jpg
It's sooooo beyond the pale to suggest that political adversaries be put in jail, dontchaknow that Tero?
I was being very kind. He has achieved all he is going to achieve. All down hill from now. It will be ugly.

If you were Trump, would you not rather be golfing than facing congress?
Sure, but as a citizen, I want to avoid the damage that the politicians you support will do if or when they get back in power. Monstrous.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:14 pm

We are all ready for monstrous damage: Medicare for all and death panels. Tax coal. Not gas.
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Cunt » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:02 pm

Prediction:
Trump will be sentenced sometime in 2020.

Sentence will be four more years working for nothing, and taking bullshit from Democrats.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:07 pm

Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:14 pm
We are all ready for monstrous damage: Medicare for all and death panels. Tax coal. Not gas.

"If it moves, tax it." 2020 Democrat party slogan
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:44 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:17 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:00 pm
Brian, you still seem to miss it.

There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign (or "directly related") must be paid with campaign funds, or is a campaign expense...
I'll just stop you there: So the American justice system which has just convicted Cohen on those exact grounds is a farce?
You stop me right there, after making a true statement? There is no rule that any expense that is related to the campaign must be paid with campaign funds or is a campaign expense -- because expenses that are related to the campaign but which also would exist "irrespective of" the campaign, are not campaign expenses. Why did you stop me there? Well, since you did - just confirm that you agree that I'm correct about the irrespective test.

I don't think it's farcical at all to have a system which does not convict you, or presume guilt, just because someone else pleads guilty to something. A system that would let prosecutors obtain plea deals with witnesses, and not just use that person as a witness for the prosecution in another case, but actually presume guilt of another person because of it - that would be a farce.

Here is Cohen's official plea agreement -- https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/ ... WE8dw4k/v0 Would you be so kind as to tell me, exactly, what you think this says he pled guilty to? Here is the "Information" that Cohen said was substantially correct: https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/ ... 2qnRknE/v0
Shifting the burden a bit there eh? Do you think that Cohen's paying off of two women, one for the second time, in the run up to the election was of aid or benefit to the election campaign of his boss, and that this action was tantamount to an illegal campaign contribution? I'm asking because you now seem to be arguing against the conviction on the basis that the monies paid didn't come out of the campaign's coffers.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:14 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:07 pm
Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:14 pm
We are all ready for monstrous damage: Medicare for all and death panels. Tax coal. Not gas.

"If it moves, tax it." 2020 Democrat party slogan
Not necessarily, moving. If it died, we tax that too. But just the once.
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Tero
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:15 pm

duplicate
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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