Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:16 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:--at some point you cross a line though, eh? I think they've crossed it. Maybe if they can manage to throw off the evangelicals, then whatever is left, may have a place here.
I fear that the evangelicals anchor the GOP to a great many votes they couldn't otherwise count on. It's money in the bank Hank.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Feck » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:18 pm

Give it up Forty Two! his own government officials are actually saying he is not in control of foreign policy and he should be ignored
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... fc31939e98
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:23 pm

It might have been better to say that we've moved beyond any good the Republicans may have been able to do. It's time to stop treating them like a viable alternative. Before Trump, I really thought we were going to do that. :sigh: But if Trump can win, the Republicans probably have many more presidencies ahead of them.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Seabass » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:54 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:So what you're saying is that there's good people on both sides?
I'm saying that most people think that they support what will be best for the country, society, etc., under their presumptions and assumptions. So, attacking someone's motive to suggest that the intent is to do "evil" is unproductive in either (a) understanding what they are saying, and (b) convincing anyone of anything.

People change opinions on important issues all the time. You may also do that. I would think if you think hard, you can find a very important issue that you once held an opposite view on. At least, that's rather normal for people, over time, to modify their views, and hold one view in their 20s, another in their 30s, etc.

If your opposition is "evil" how can that be done, even in the face of a persuasive argument? If a person has a position on distribution of revenue relative to schools based on several assumptions or presuppositions, and then later those assumptions or presuppositions are challenged persuasively, if only the evil people don't agree with your first position, how can you possibly change your mind?
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Rum » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:59 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:This is very true:
Again, the data suggest there is a correlation. Radcliff even states that “higher levels of taxation suggest higher levels of satisfaction with life”.
I would also add that the willingness to pay taxes also gives satisfaction with life. The fact that can contribute to society is very satisfying.
I think this is an excellent point. One gets the impression that Americans resent every penny the government asks them for - a consequence perhaps of the anti-government sentiment that is so much part of society there. I'm not saying Europeans actively enjoy paying their taxes, but they do see real benefits and make the link between what thy pay and what they get out of it in ways perhaps many Americans don't. They feel the connection, which I suspect is not as prevalent in the USA.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by laklak » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:09 pm

The problem is we don't see many tangible benefits from Federal taxes. We see soldiers dying in places nobody gives two fucks about, we see massive weapons contracts, we see an alphabet soup of agencies prying into our personal lives at every opportunity, we see heavy handed regulation promulgated from on high and enforced in a one-size-fits-all method that ignores local and state differences, we see people patting down our junk when we're trying to fly to see the family. We also drive on interstates with crumbling bridges, we see dams failing, banks failing and Feds bailing. We see waste, mismanagement, corruption, and malfeasance. No, I don't like paying taxes for that, I don't like it at all. That's why I pay Magic George the Accountant as much as I do, I'd rather the money goes to him than them.

It's different on a local level. I see what my property taxes pay for, and though I don't particularly like writing that check every year I understand the necessity. But fuck the Feds.

Yeah, I get my Social Security "retirement", which I paid 15% of my income towards for 30 fucking years and might get back a quarter of it before I pop my clogs. So again, Fuck The Feds.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 am

Your system of government is broken, though. Taxation isn't the problem, money in politics is.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:28 am

laklak wrote:The problem is we don't see many tangible benefits from Federal taxes. We see soldiers dying in places nobody gives two fucks about, we see massive weapons contracts, we see an alphabet soup of agencies prying into our personal lives at every opportunity, we see heavy handed regulation promulgated from on high and enforced in a one-size-fits-all method that ignores local and state differences, we see people patting down our junk when we're trying to fly to see the family. We also drive on interstates with crumbling bridges, we see dams failing, banks failing and Feds bailing. We see waste, mismanagement, corruption, and malfeasance. No, I don't like paying taxes for that, I don't like it at all. That's why I pay Magic George the Accountant as much as I do, I'd rather the money goes to him than them.

It's different on a local level. I see what my property taxes pay for, and though I don't particularly like writing that check every year I understand the necessity. But fuck the Feds.

Yeah, I get my Social Security "retirement", which I paid 15% of my income towards for 30 fucking years and might get back a quarter of it before I pop my clogs. So again, Fuck The Feds.
There are some duplicated roles, but I had this friend who worked for OSHA. he had to deal with state and city bureaucracies. I asked him what the difference was. He said with local stuff, there was more corruption. "You look the other way on this and I look away on that."

But mostly the federal system is there to funnel money to poor states. The other option is to just depopulate Mississippi.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:25 pm

Feck wrote:Give it up Forty Two! his own government officials are actually saying he is not in control of foreign policy and he should be ignored
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... fc31939e98
That's not what that article says, but whatever.

It says that unnamed "US officials" tried reassure other unnamed persons, and urged them to ignore his Twitter "rants." Let me guess how much liberty is taken by the HuffPo writer as to the words of the US Officials (the delegation to the Munich conference was led by HR McMaster and Mad Dog Mattis), but nevertheless that doesn't mean that Trump is not in control of foreign policy.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:00 am

It's the pee pee tapes. Must be.
TRUMP: “I have been much tougher on Russia than Obama, just look at the facts. Total Fake News!” — Trump’s tweet on Tuesday.

THE FACTS: The Trump administration actually lags the Obama administration on this front, by all public evidence.

It has not yet penalized any Russian officials for interfering in the 2016 election, arguing the threat of sanctions has been enough of a deterrent. Meanwhile, Trump’s own officials warn that Russia is already acting to subvert this year’s U.S. midterm elections after having judged its efforts in 2016 a success.

Under a mandate and deadline from Congress, the administration in late January released a public report listing Russians who have gained wealth or power under President Vladimir Putin — 114 politicians and 96 “oligarchs” in all. The list was drawn from Forbes magazine’s Russian billionaires’ rankings, but the Treasury Department said it sent Congress a classified version with additional names. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin said the report would lead to new sanctions against Russia, but none has been issued.

A week ago, Trump’s national intelligence director, Dan Coats, told senators Russia took “sophisticated advantage of social media” in the 2016 campaign and interfered broadly, in “pervasive” fashion. That conclusion was followed by special counsel Robert Mueller’s indictment against 13 Russians and three Russian companies accused of plotting to meddle in that election, ultimately aiming to benefit Trump over Democrat Hillary Clinton.

But Trump has not responded to that with “tough” words against Russia, lashing out instead against Democrats, other critics and his FBI.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:40 am

Forty Two wrote:
Feck wrote:Give it up Forty Two! his own government officials are actually saying he is not in control of foreign policy and he should be ignored
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... fc31939e98
That's not what that article says, but whatever.

It says that unnamed "US officials" tried reassure other unnamed persons, and urged them to ignore his Twitter "rants." Let me guess how much liberty is taken by the HuffPo writer as to the words of the US Officials (the delegation to the Munich conference was led by HR McMaster and Mad Dog Mattis), but nevertheless that doesn't mean that Trump is not in control of foreign policy.
... nor that he can't, won't, or hasn't switch policy on the hoof, undercut Tillerson by Tweet whenever his blood is up, or publicly disagreed with ambassadors about what a policy is or means.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Joe » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:18 am

Forty Two wrote:
Feck wrote:Give it up Forty Two! his own government officials are actually saying he is not in control of foreign policy and he should be ignored
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... fc31939e98
That's not what that article says, but whatever.

It says that unnamed "US officials" tried reassure other unnamed persons, and urged them to ignore his Twitter "rants." Let me guess how much liberty is taken by the HuffPo writer as to the words of the US Officials (the delegation to the Munich conference was led by HR McMaster and Mad Dog Mattis), but nevertheless that doesn't mean that Trump is not in control of foreign policy.
The Washington Post has some more detail, but events cast doubt on what our officials are saying about nothing changing in our commitments.

Israel has struck hard at Syrian air defenses in what threatens to be an escalation of an already complicated situation, and where are we? We are mighty quiet, a significant departure from our usual reaction to this kind of crisis, and the apparent hands-off strategy strikes me as more consistent with Trump's positions than our past approaches.

He's in conflict with his advisers, who adhere more to our traditional foreign policy values, but Trump is President and can't just be ignored. I just hope he doesn't screw up in a disastrous way. It doesn't help to have this kind of thing said,
One diplomat, speaking on the condition of anonymity to avoid provoking Trump, asked whether policymakers like McMaster who adhere largely to traditional U.S. foreign policy positions were falling into the same trap as Germany’s elite during Hitler’s rise, when they continued to serve in government in the name of protecting their nation.

The answer, the diplomat said, might be found after a “nuclear war,” which he feared could be provoked by the Trump administration’s hawkish approach to North Korea.
That's a disquieting thought.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:28 am

A president should not be able to lead us into a nuclear war. That's insanity, and as far as I'm concerned anyone who believes otherwise shouldn't be anywhere near Washington.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Tero » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:12 am

He forgotto drain the swamp! Placing the swamp in the white house, along with Russia.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:55 am

In Soviet Whitehouse the swamp drains you.
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