Celebrity Sexual Harassment Charge Sheet

[Rum]

I guess much of this is dependent upon context, how well you know the person and the nature of the relationship,. but I'm wondering where the line is - a broad grey one no doubt. In some cases complimenting a woman on her appearance could be construed as harassment - on her body almost certainly, if you didn't have the 'right' relationship. Saying straight out you would like to have sex with them, if done in an appropriately respectful manner, need not be I would suggest, but almost certainly would be.

It is a fucking minefield I tell you! A minefield!

[Forty Two]

Yes - however, sexual harassment is not purely subjective. It has a subjective and objective component.

It is objective, in that the conduct must be itself harassing and based on sex.

It is subjective, in that even conduct which is welcomed or not unwelcome is not sexually harassing, even if it looks really crude and rude, etc.

Sexual harassment is not defined as "conduct a person says they don't like" or "conduct a person believes is sexually harassing."

And, typically, sexual harassment occurs or applies in defined circumstances. I.e. conduct at work might be sexually harassing, but that same conduct in a bar is not sexually harassing. In a bar, the general laws against "harassment" apply and related more to threats and stalking than with mere conduct which is sexually suggestive.

I.e., if you tell a person that they will only be promoted if they sleep with you, then that's sexual harassment if the person does not want the sexual overture, but telling a person that you will only buy them dinner and drinks if they sleep with you is not sexual harassment even if the person does not want the sexual overture.

[Rum]

I don't disagree with any of that. Using status or power to coerce a person into having sex is clearly harassment, but it is more than that - it is akin to extortion. Casual communication which can be misconstrued though can also be interpreted that way.

As an example I was on one of my regular dog walk routes a couple of months ago. I was in a quiet area of a park - nobody much about, but a young woman of about 18 I would say was collecting litter as someone had been antisocial enough to dump some there.

I thought her actions were laudable and praiseworthy and I said so as I was passing. The girl/woman looked awkward and uncomfortable and didn't really respond except with a nod. I didn't want to make her even more uncomfortable so I just walked on.

Later I described the little episode with a good female friend of mine. Her view was that a girl alone in a quiet park was entitled to feel uncomfortable and potentially 'harassed' by s male stranger coming up to her and opening up a conversation. Personally I found that hard to accept, but I defer to my female friend as she is female and I am not. 'Harassment' does not necessarily have to be coercive or for that matter aggressive I guess. And of course, another female individual in the young woman's place might have reacted quite differently and have been happy to open up a conversation about the loutish littering habits of young yobs.

[Sean Hayden]

That sounds like an awful way to go about things Rum --yuck! What's wrong with just being misunderstood? -fuck'em 'n fuck me too when I do it to someone else

[Rum]

That sounds like an awful way to go about things Rum --yuck! What's wrong with just being misunderstood? -fuck'em 'n fuck me too when I do it to someone else

I think you are right. Being 'uncomfortable' is just tough and there are a lot - a shitload of worse things in life. If we are afraid of stepping on egg shells all the time social interaction will just gradually shut down. There is a risk of a degrading of natural human resilience.

I can't say I didn't think sexual thoughts about the young women though.. She was pretty damned hot.

[JimC]

She may have been a telepath, Rum...

[Rum]

She may have been a telepath, Rum...

I can but hope...

[Rum]

I think Kevin Spacey’s just overtaken Winestain. 20 complaints originating from his time at the Old Vic.

[Forty Two]

Al Franken.

LOL - He's good enough, he's smart enough, and gosh darn it, chicks dig him!

[Hermit]

Yes - however, sexual harassment is not purely subjective. It has a subjective and objective component.

It is objective, in that the conduct must be itself harassing and based on sex.

Norma: "Dad, I want to pass my maths test."
Dad, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that pass, don't you?"

Norma: "Harry, I really want that rôle"
Harry Cohn, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that rôle, don't you?"

[Forty Two]

I don't disagree with any of that. Using status or power to coerce a person into having sex is clearly harassment, but it is more than that - it is akin to extortion. Casual communication which can be misconstrued though can also be interpreted that way.

As an example I was on one of my regular dog walk routes a couple of months ago. I was in a quiet area of a park - nobody much about, but a young woman of about 18 I would say was collecting litter as someone had been antisocial enough to dump some there.

I thought her actions were laudable and praiseworthy and I said so as I was passing. The girl/woman looked awkward and uncomfortable and didn't really respond except with a nod. I didn't want to make her even more uncomfortable so I just walked on.

Later I described the little episode with a good female friend of mine. Her view was that a girl alone in a quiet park was entitled to feel uncomfortable and potentially 'harassed' by s male stranger coming up to her and opening up a conversation. Personally I found that hard to accept, but I defer to my female friend as she is female and I am not. 'Harassment' does not necessarily have to be coercive or for that matter aggressive I guess. And of course, another female individual in the young woman's place might have reacted quite differently and have been happy to open up a conversation about the loutish littering habits of young yobs.

I agree that she is entitled to feel uncomfortable and potentially harassed. Everyone is entitled to feel however they feel. Even if a man felt uncomfortable in exactly the same circumstance, he is entitled to feel that way. Why not? Some people feel uncomfortable on a ladder, or when confronted with a clown. There is no deference necessary here, because nobody knows how other people feel.

That entitlement to feelings does not define sexual harassment. It's a necessary, but not sufficient condition for there to be sexual harassment. You are not, Rum, required to go through life assuming people are "uncomfortable" when you say to someone that their actions are laudable and praiseworthy as you pass them. You are "entitled" to your feelings too, and you are "entitled" to exist in the world too. You are entitled to move down that same street, and you are not an offender by virtue of doing it.

Change the story a bit, and you are now a black man, dressed in denim pants and a hoodie at night, and you're walking in a sparsely traveled area and you pass a young white woman who is uncomfortable. Let's say she's uncomfortable because you are a man. Or, let's say she's uncomfortable because you are a black man. She's entitled to feel that way. But, your behavior doesn't become sexual or other harassment because of that.

[devogue]

Yes - however, sexual harassment is not purely subjective. It has a subjective and objective component.

It is objective, in that the conduct must be itself harassing and based on sex.

Norma: "Dad, I want to pass my maths test."
Dad, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that pass, don't you?"

Norma: "Harry, I really want that rôle"
Harry Cohn, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that rôle, don't you?"

Eh?

[Forty Two]

Yes - however, sexual harassment is not purely subjective. It has a subjective and objective component.

It is objective, in that the conduct must be itself harassing and based on sex.

Norma: "Dad, I want to pass my maths test."
Dad, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that pass, don't you?"

Norma: "Harry, I really want that rôle"
Harry Cohn, touching Norma's knee: "Norma, you know what to do to get that rôle, don't you?"

Exactly - subjective and objective components.

[Brian Peacock]

What? But it's just a touch on the knee. Why is everybody so quick to tell boys and girls that such trivial actions are worthy of being categorised as sexual harassment? Norma really needs to chill out and get proper perspective on this.

[Forty Two]

What? But it's just a touch on the knee. Why is everybody so quick to tell boys and girls that such trivial actions are worthy of being categorised as sexual harassment? Norma really needs to chill out and get proper perspective on this.

Indeed, because if that's all that she reports happened, then it's a big nothing.

The reason more facts are needed is because we don't know if he's referring to studying or something else. My dad used to tell me all that time that I knew what I had to do to pass a test or do well in school. Do my homework and study.

Someone who says "he told me I knew what I needed to do to pass that test," and "I felt uncomfortable because I think he meant something sexual" is not giving enough information to conclude it was about sex.