"Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 pm

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:The real point is in the damage that systematic racism has done over the years. It is one more way of a group cementing power, and keeping other groups down. It is also an inescapable fact that most of the systematic racism, benefiting some and injuring others, has been white racism against black, brown and yellow. This is simple historical fact, and a fuck of a lot more important than empty arguments about inner feelings of tendencies to racism...
Sure, but there is very little, if any, "systematic" racism in the US anymore. We have worlds less racism than in the 1950s and 60s. There are certainly racists out there. And, that's, unfortunately, a price to be paid for living in a free society. People get to think and say what they like, even if it's racist.

But, systemic or systematic? There is legal machinery that is set up to remove racism from government, from the workplace, and from public life in general. If there are any preferences at all, they are affirmative action preferences in favor of women and minorities.

A racist today is anathema, a legal and cultural pariah. Do you ever see any public support for a racist, other than the 12 guys in his group of white pride protesters? You won't see it in the media - you'll see universal condemnation. You won't see it in politics - as all politicians disavow racism and racists. The only thing really you'll see is a discussion of whether it's o.k. for people to do violence against the racists, because they're racist. You'll see university protests and discussions saying that free speech involving racist ideas (or even just allegedly racist ideas) is itself violence.
Clearly overt racism has declined in the US, but it lingered on in the South for a long time after the civil war, as you well know; segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc. The systematic part still remains in the way your voter registration laws work in practice, and there are plenty of far-right groups openly displaying racist policies.

But granted that overt racism is generally regarded with opprobrium, the fact remains that the consequences of systematic racism in the past have left the black population in the US considerably disadvantaged in comparison with whites, statistically.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:41 pm

Cunt wrote:

Whatever racism is, I've identified it with it's positive elements as well. For example, if someone says they like Asians because they are good exercise, and very spiritually admirable, I think they are exhibiting racism. I guess to me it seems racist whether a compliment or an insult. To others, it seems it only bothers them when it is an insult.
This is an important point, but it can be handled rationally. I would call positive generalisations about a racial group technically racist, but one that does not require condemnation or action. Mind you, such generalisations may simply be incorrect folk law, and even if there is a clear statistical basis, they may well be a result of cultural factors rather than the implied genetic advantage.

But even "positive" racism can shade into worrying stereotypes - black guys having huge dicks, for example, with the unspoken corollary that this is accompanied by poor cognition and/or bad behaviour.

The real essence of racism remains the damage done to a given group by another racial group with the power to apply negative consequences.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:29 pm

JimC wrote:
Cunt wrote:

Whatever racism is, I've identified it with it's positive elements as well. For example, if someone says they like Asians because they are good exercise, and very spiritually admirable, I think they are exhibiting racism. I guess to me it seems racist whether a compliment or an insult. To others, it seems it only bothers them when it is an insult.
This is an important point, but it can be handled rationally. I would call positive generalisations about a racial group technically racist, but one that does not require condemnation or action. Mind you, such generalisations may simply be incorrect folk law, and even if there is a clear statistical basis, they may well be a result of cultural factors rather than the implied genetic advantage.

But even "positive" racism can shade into worrying stereotypes - black guys having huge dicks, for example, with the unspoken corollary that this is accompanied by poor cognition and/or bad behaviour.

The real essence of racism remains the damage done to a given group by another racial group with the power to apply negative consequences.
It's bullshit either way.

But what I do know is that there either are, or are not differences between racial groups. Even talking about those differences seems impossible for some people. Even talking about the lack makes it impossible for others.

What is happening in my country though, is that certain groups are not held to the same standards as others. This is the bigotry of low expectations. If we graduate a bunch more engineers (for example) that may look great on paper, but when more bridges fall down, it won't look so good.

Some jobs are too important for affirmative action, surely. I think national defense is one. Would you agree?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:50 pm

The differences that do exist are minor and unimportant in comparison to our commonality as Homo sapiens. It's not racist to observe minor differences, but it becomes so if you use those differences to claim superiority for one racial type (typically your own) or to advocate differential treatment because of them, with perhaps one or two exceptions.

One of those is medical. Apart from the obvious sunscreen for white skins issue, it is increasingly being discovered that treatments for some medical conditions can be optimised based on the recipient's genotype, and in some (but not all) cases there may be some correlation with race.

The problematic one is affirmative action, which tends to irritate people of certain political persuasions. If for historical reasons (often involving systematic racial discrimination in the past) certain groups are vastly under-representated in particular educational strata or occupations (often high status ones), then I think it would be in everyone's interest of their proportional representation could be increased. The question as to whether various types of affirmative action are actually effective and workable is still open.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:36 am

mistermack wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
mistermack wrote:These are clearly not tigers. :funny:
They clearly are.

ETA: :funny:
Nope. How are you a tiger, if you perform no tigerish actions and don't self identify as a tiger?

:D
Genetics, you genius. :fp:
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Re: Re:

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:42 am

Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote: If someone behaves like a racist, then they are a racist. If someone doesn't behave as a racist, nor self-identify as a racist, then they aren't a racist. The equation and logic couldn't be simpler. Yet it's no surprise that the person who thinks science is a conspiracy theory can't manage something even this simple.
Technically, this is incomplete, as someone could believe a race is superior to another race, and hence "be" a racist, without either self-identifying as one, or doing racist things. I.e., a racist can hire black people as a way to comply with the law and avoid civil rights lawsuits, all while believing them to be inferior workers.
If their actions aren't racist, then what point is there in identifying them as racist? They're not racist, they are moral citizens.
Your comment referred to "logic." Logically, a person is a racist if they hold racist beliefs, like in the superiority of one race over another. Whether there is any point in identifying them as such is logically a different issue.
This isn't what MM is talking about. He's talking about it being "instinctual" - i.e. the feeling isn't conscious. He's saying that everyone is racist. That's as meaningful as saying that no one is racist.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:50 am

Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Except SJWs tend to hold leftist political views, which is not generally "conservative." The authoritarian left is not in the same place on the political spectrum as the authoritarian right.

SJWs tend to dig on socialism, view communism as an ideal good that is just very difficult or impossible to achieve, and to view themselves as extremely progressive in their politics.
What does that have to do with whether they have a problem with what people think in the absence of behaviours that correspond to those thoughts? :think:
Nothing. That comment is in response to your reference to them as "conservative" in nature.
You implied with your rhetorical question that leftists and SJWs care what other people think in absence of any actions corresponding to those thoughts. You going to offer an explanation of how you reached that conclusion or are you just throwing it out there for empty rhetorical effect?
What has to do with thought is that SJWs are very often bleating on about what people think, believe and feel. Their focus on feelings often trumps actions. A person is racist or sexist of a member of a protected group feels they are racist or sexist.
Based on their alleged racist/sexist actions, not what they unknowingly think inside their heads. :fp:
A statement is harassment if a person feels that it is harassment. Intent doesn't matter, and the "harasser" doesn't get to tell the "harassed" how to feel about a given comment or action.
You've totally ballsed up your own argument. Your claim was that SJWs care about what other people think in absence of action, not what they themselves think. And even if you were bizarrely making that claim, it's patently wrong, as SJWs act on the thoughts that they have in their head (i.e. they think the person is a racist, so they act on it and call the person a racist).

I'm standing by for 8 pages of equivocation. :bored:
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:58 am

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:The real point is in the damage that systematic racism has done over the years. It is one more way of a group cementing power, and keeping other groups down. It is also an inescapable fact that most of the systematic racism, benefiting some and injuring others, has been white racism against black, brown and yellow. This is simple historical fact, and a fuck of a lot more important than empty arguments about inner feelings of tendencies to racism...
Sure, but there is very little, if any, "systematic" racism in the US anymore. We have worlds less racism than in the 1950s and 60s. There are certainly racists out there. And, that's, unfortunately, a price to be paid for living in a free society. People get to think and say what they like, even if it's racist.

But, systemic or systematic? There is legal machinery that is set up to remove racism from government, from the workplace, and from public life in general. If there are any preferences at all, they are affirmative action preferences in favor of women and minorities.

A racist today is anathema, a legal and cultural pariah. Do you ever see any public support for a racist, other than the 12 guys in his group of white pride protesters? You won't see it in the media - you'll see universal condemnation. You won't see it in politics - as all politicians disavow racism and racists. The only thing really you'll see is a discussion of whether it's o.k. for people to do violence against the racists, because they're racist. You'll see university protests and discussions saying that free speech involving racist ideas (or even just allegedly racist ideas) is itself violence.
Clearly overt racism has declined in the US, but it lingered on in the South for a long time after the civil war, as you well know; segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc. The systematic part still remains in the way your voter registration laws work in practice, and there are plenty of far-right groups openly displaying racist policies.

But granted that overt racism is generally regarded with opprobrium, the fact remains that the consequences of systematic racism in the past have left the black population in the US considerably disadvantaged in comparison with whites, statistically.
Systemic is probably a better word to use. Not that I think that helps 42 in understanding our point. It might be helpful for him to think of it as an emergent property of our society/system. Racism and sexism still prevail despite the law saying the opposite.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 am

Yeah, systemic is a better word... :tup:

But one also must recognise that a lot of progress (much of it legislative) has been made in the US over the past 50 years, idiot right wing groups aside...
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:01 am

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:The real point is in the damage that systematic racism has done over the years. It is one more way of a group cementing power, and keeping other groups down. It is also an inescapable fact that most of the systematic racism, benefiting some and injuring others, has been white racism against black, brown and yellow. This is simple historical fact, and a fuck of a lot more important than empty arguments about inner feelings of tendencies to racism...
Sure, but there is very little, if any, "systematic" racism in the US anymore. We have worlds less racism than in the 1950s and 60s. There are certainly racists out there. And, that's, unfortunately, a price to be paid for living in a free society. People get to think and say what they like, even if it's racist.

But, systemic or systematic? There is legal machinery that is set up to remove racism from government, from the workplace, and from public life in general. If there are any preferences at all, they are affirmative action preferences in favor of women and minorities.

A racist today is anathema, a legal and cultural pariah. Do you ever see any public support for a racist, other than the 12 guys in his group of white pride protesters? You won't see it in the media - you'll see universal condemnation. You won't see it in politics - as all politicians disavow racism and racists. The only thing really you'll see is a discussion of whether it's o.k. for people to do violence against the racists, because they're racist. You'll see university protests and discussions saying that free speech involving racist ideas (or even just allegedly racist ideas) is itself violence.
Clearly overt racism has declined in the US, but it lingered on in the South for a long time after the civil war, as you well know; segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc. The systematic part still remains in the way your voter registration laws work in practice, and there are plenty of far-right groups openly displaying racist policies.

But granted that overt racism is generally regarded with opprobrium, the fact remains that the consequences of systematic racism in the past have left the black population in the US considerably disadvantaged in comparison with whites, statistically.
Look, our voter registration laws are not racist at all. People just go and register. There is no barrier to blacks getting registered to vote. We do nothing more onerous than any other first world, industrialized, western country.

There are plenty of far right groups in Europe, Canada and Australia, too. That's what a free country allows. Freedom of political thought, even for distasteful people. There are also black racist groups, like the Black Panthers and African separatist groups like Farrakhan's racist and antisemitic group. The number of American in white supremacist groups like the KKK or Aryan Nations is in the 5 figures -- a few thousand. Out of a country of 330 million. How many racists do you think y'all have in Oz? What with your history of abominable -- systemic -- treatment of black aborigenes? Or, have you totally resolved all racism in your country, such that you have no individuals and groups who are racist?

The US is about as racist as Canada and Oz. European countries have plenty of racists in them -- look at Austria. Look at France - Le Pen, right? Look at the rise of nationalist groups in Germany. What about Hungary?

There are, racists, of course, but neither those countries, nor the US are systemically racist anymore - and racism is culturally despised. Racism today is primarily in Africa and Asia - and if you want to see real "systemic" racism today, you have a better chance of seeing in South America. Brazil fired their Carnival queen for being too black. https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0038.html

It's the Enlightenment West that has managed to eliminate racism, except in a small percentage of jackasses. And, the West certainly does not allow government or employment or education-related racism. Private racism is generally allowed in free countries, as it must be in order for there to be liberty of thought. But, to say that the US has system that's racist is absurd. The kind of things claimed to be racist are things like "having to show identification" (because supposedly black people are less able to get identification) -- however, we have Identification laws that require people to show identification to police, and to stores when alcohol and cigarettes are purchased, and to drive cars. Yet, nobody says such requirements are racist, even though blacks are supposedly less likely to have such identification documents. Why is that? I mean, if blacks are less able to get driver licenses, then isn't the requirement to get a driver license to drive just as racist as requiring an ID to vote?
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Re: Re:

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:03 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote: If someone behaves like a racist, then they are a racist. If someone doesn't behave as a racist, nor self-identify as a racist, then they aren't a racist. The equation and logic couldn't be simpler. Yet it's no surprise that the person who thinks science is a conspiracy theory can't manage something even this simple.
Technically, this is incomplete, as someone could believe a race is superior to another race, and hence "be" a racist, without either self-identifying as one, or doing racist things. I.e., a racist can hire black people as a way to comply with the law and avoid civil rights lawsuits, all while believing them to be inferior workers.
If their actions aren't racist, then what point is there in identifying them as racist? They're not racist, they are moral citizens.
Your comment referred to "logic." Logically, a person is a racist if they hold racist beliefs, like in the superiority of one race over another. Whether there is any point in identifying them as such is logically a different issue.
This isn't what MM is talking about. He's talking about it being "instinctual" - i.e. the feeling isn't conscious. He's saying that everyone is racist. That's as meaningful as saying that no one is racist.
That's a completely different issue from whether someone can be racist if they neither identify as one, nor act like one.

Yes, saying everyone is racist is incorrect. Everyone isn't racist.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:08 am

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:The real point is in the damage that systematic racism has done over the years. It is one more way of a group cementing power, and keeping other groups down. It is also an inescapable fact that most of the systematic racism, benefiting some and injuring others, has been white racism against black, brown and yellow. This is simple historical fact, and a fuck of a lot more important than empty arguments about inner feelings of tendencies to racism...
Sure, but there is very little, if any, "systematic" racism in the US anymore. We have worlds less racism than in the 1950s and 60s. There are certainly racists out there. And, that's, unfortunately, a price to be paid for living in a free society. People get to think and say what they like, even if it's racist.

But, systemic or systematic? There is legal machinery that is set up to remove racism from government, from the workplace, and from public life in general. If there are any preferences at all, they are affirmative action preferences in favor of women and minorities.

A racist today is anathema, a legal and cultural pariah. Do you ever see any public support for a racist, other than the 12 guys in his group of white pride protesters? You won't see it in the media - you'll see universal condemnation. You won't see it in politics - as all politicians disavow racism and racists. The only thing really you'll see is a discussion of whether it's o.k. for people to do violence against the racists, because they're racist. You'll see university protests and discussions saying that free speech involving racist ideas (or even just allegedly racist ideas) is itself violence.
Clearly overt racism has declined in the US, but it lingered on in the South for a long time after the civil war, as you well know; segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc. The systematic part still remains in the way your voter registration laws work in practice, and there are plenty of far-right groups openly displaying racist policies.

But granted that overt racism is generally regarded with opprobrium, the fact remains that the consequences of systematic racism in the past have left the black population in the US considerably disadvantaged in comparison with whites, statistically.
Look, our voter registration laws are not racist at all. People just go and register. There is no barrier to blacks getting registered to vote. We do nothing more onerous than any other first world, industrialized, western country.

There are plenty of far right groups in Europe, Canada and Australia, too. That's what a free country allows. Freedom of political thought, even for distasteful people. There are also black racist groups, like the Black Panthers and African separatist groups like Farrakhan's racist and antisemitic group. The number of American in white supremacist groups like the KKK or Aryan Nations is in the 5 figures -- a few thousand. Out of a country of 330 million. How many racists do you think y'all have in Oz? What with your history of abominable -- systemic -- treatment of black aborigenes? Or, have you totally resolved all racism in your country, such that you have no individuals and groups who are racist?

The US is about as racist as Canada and Oz. European countries have plenty of racists in them -- look at Austria. Look at France - Le Pen, right? Look at the rise of nationalist groups in Germany. What about Hungary?

There are, racists, of course, but neither those countries, nor the US are systemically racist anymore - and racism is culturally despised. Racism today is primarily in Africa and Asia - and if you want to see real "systemic" racism today, you have a better chance of seeing in South America. Brazil fired their Carnival queen for being too black. https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0038.html

It's the Enlightenment West that has managed to eliminate racism, except in a small percentage of jackasses. And, the West certainly does not allow government or employment or education-related racism. Private racism is generally allowed in free countries, as it must be in order for there to be liberty of thought. But, to say that the US has system that's racist is absurd. The kind of things claimed to be racist are things like "having to show identification" (because supposedly black people are less able to get identification) -- however, we have Identification laws that require people to show identification to police, and to stores when alcohol and cigarettes are purchased, and to drive cars. Yet, nobody says such requirements are racist, even though blacks are supposedly less likely to have such identification documents. Why is that? I mean, if blacks are less able to get driver licenses, then isn't the requirement to get a driver license to drive just as racist as requiring an ID to vote?
You dodged this bit: "the way your voter registration laws work in practice"

If registering to vote, in at least a statistical sense, is made harder to some people than others, then the democratic process is subverted.

As far as right-wing racist groups, sure, they are not only in the US, I accept that point. But you have them, and you have an administration not actually busting a gut to criticise them. Remember the infamous "there are good people on both sides quote"? One of those "sides" was the KKK...

You also dodged this: "the consequences of systematic racism in the past have left the black population in the US considerably disadvantaged in comparison with whites, statistically"

That fact would be hard to dispute. How to deal with it is the issue. I'm not convinced about Sean's "reparations" thing, but the disadvantage is there, it's real, and there are compelling reasons for thinking that dealing with it in some way or another will potentially be a very good deal for US society overall...
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm

JimC wrote:Remember the infamous "there are good people on both sides quote"? One of those "sides" was the KKK...
I remember hearing a black guy say something like this.

He made a netflix movie, about himself going to talk to good people in the KKK. He has a collection of surrendered uniforms from members who have had their minds change.

How much accusing and yelling do you think he did to get them?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 am

Forty Two wrote:
Look, our voter registration laws are not racist at all.
Let me try to get their point across with a parallel.

Once, my job was to provide a service to people who sucked at schedule.

If I didn't like someone, I could simply make an appointment, let them miss it, repeat as per P&P manual, then dismiss them and it looks EXACTLY like I was doing my job, providing service.

But they don't get served, and it is exactly because of the exploitation of the disability they were seeking help with.

Systemic opposition, enacted by hardworking, regular people.
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

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Brian Peacock
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:00 am

I bet that gave you a thrilling sense of power of them. Nice one. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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