Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Tero » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:23 pm

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:44 am

Example of the state's use of violence to secure private profit. Canada...

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by laklak » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 am

Feudalism would be a better solution, as long as you're at least landed gentry or minor nobility. Peasants - not so much, but hey, they're just peasants.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 am

laklak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 am
Feudalism would be a better solution, as long as you're at least landed gentry or minor nobility. Peasants - not so much, but hey, they're just peasants.
You think? In feudal societies the likelihood of literally getting the axe or dying violently through human action is too high for my liking. Being a member of a royal family, major aristocrats, minor nobles or landed gentry granted no immunity from that. Everyone basically lived and died at the caprice of warlords, and the warlords themselves only lived for as long as the fortunes of war favoured them. Feudalism is a damn sight less civilised than capitalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Tero » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:00 am

We didn't have that feudalism in Finland. On the other hand, farming always sucked there.

It got to the share cropper stage though.
Last edited by Tero on Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:18 am

Hermit wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 am
laklak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 am
Feudalism would be a better solution, as long as you're at least landed gentry or minor nobility. Peasants - not so much, but hey, they're just peasants.
You think? In feudal societies the likelihood of literally getting the axe or dying violently through human action is too high for my liking. Being a member of a royal family, major aristocrats, minor nobles or landed gentry granted no immunity from that. Everyone basically lived and died at the caprice of warlords, and the warlords themselves only lived for as long as the fortunes of war favoured them. Feudalism is a damn sight less civilised than capitalism.
So, you're saying that there was constant feuding in feudalism... :tea:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:04 am

We never had feudalism in this country. To busy cooperating building dykes and trading. The middle classes have always ruled here. Royalty was a late addition because the middle classes thought the country needed it. It is still appointed by the government and has bugger all to do with a god. Alex knows he can get kicked out any time.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:04 am
We never had feudalism in this country.
Actually, feudalism flourished in the Netherlands until the mid-15th century.

Also, Feudalism Alive and Well in 21st Century Netherlands :razzle:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:25 am

Hermit wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:04 am
We never had feudalism in this country.
Actually, feudalism flourished in the Netherlands until the mid-15th century.

Also, Feudalism Alive and Well in 21st Century Netherlands :razzle:
Of course Hermit. Any evidence? Of course not.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:33 am

Have a nice read and you may understand a bit more:

Geschiedenis van Nederland

Best in Dutch as English translations miss half of it.

Up until half 19th century België and Nederland were one country.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:25 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:04 am
We never had feudalism in this country.
Actually, feudalism flourished in the Netherlands until the mid-15th century.

Also, Feudalism Alive and Well in 21st Century Netherlands :razzle:
Of course Hermit. Any evidence? Of course not.
Sorry. I was wrong. Feudal laws applied in the Netherlands until the 17th century. And yeah, the link in my previous post was obviously to a tongue in cheek type article.
Feudalism was evidently in full vogue in the Netherlands when they were under the Holy Roman Empire; for, as early as 1346, we find the Empress Margaret granting a "handvest" (privilege) which relieved feudal tenants from military service beyond the border, unless the war had been undertaken upon the advice of the "knights, nobles and good towns.'' And so late as 1631 feudalism was of sufficient importance in the Netherlands that the celebrated Grotius devoted thereto (under the title of leen-recht) no less than three chapters (XLI-XLIII) of the second book of his famous commentary on the country's law.
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi ... ontext=clr
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:10 am

Dutch feudalism was the best feudalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am

Nevermind. This was the 17th century:
De burgerij werd de dominerende stand, terwijl de invloed van de adel en al eerder van de geestelijkheid verminderde. Regenten begonnen het politieke klimaat te beheersen. In vergelijking met de omringende landen was de heersende elite echter opvallend bescheiden.
De politieke macht was in de Republiek overgegaan van de Raad van State naar de Staten-Generaal die onder de soevereine provinciale staten vielen. In theorie waren alle gewesten gelijk en hadden ze alle een stem in de Staten-Generaal. Door het economische overwicht kon Holland deze echter domineren en kon de landsadvocaat van Holland Oldenbarnevelt bij gebrek aan politieke ambities van Maurits optreden als regeringsleider. Daarnaast benoemden de staten een stadhouder, in de praktijk altijd een Oranje. Naast militaire macht had deze door secrete besognes en patronage ook informele politieke invloed. Zolang de belangen van Holland en Oranje overeenkwamen, bleek deze gekunstelde situatie wonderwel te werken, maar daarbuiten kon dit het bestuur volledig verlammen, zoals tijdens het Twaalfjarig Bestand voor het eerst zou blijken. Een bestuurlijke hervorming bleef echter steken bij de vraag of de uiteindelijke macht bij Oranje dan wel bij Holland lag. Slechts Spinoza behandelde de fundamentele vraag over waar de soevereiniteit lag op universele wijze. Hij zag democratie als de best mogelijke staatsvorm.
The middle classes were taking over but there was not any feudelism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:05 am

Hermit wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 am
laklak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 am
Feudalism would be a better solution, as long as you're at least landed gentry or minor nobility. Peasants - not so much, but hey, they're just peasants.
You think? In feudal societies the likelihood of literally getting the axe or dying violently through human action is too high for my liking. Being a member of a royal family, major aristocrats, minor nobles or landed gentry granted no immunity from that. Everyone basically lived and died at the caprice of warlords, and the warlords themselves only lived for as long as the fortunes of war favoured them. Feudalism is a damn sight less civilised than capitalism.
You have too brutal a view of feudal societies... remember, France was nominally feudal till 1789, and the age of warlords was past, mostly since the Renaissance... I assume you'd say Germany stepped out of feudalism after the end of the 30 year war, or maybe even latter, when Wilhelm I unified the country under Prussia...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:17 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am
Nevermind. This was the 17th century:
De burgerij werd de dominerende stand, terwijl de invloed van de adel en al eerder van de geestelijkheid verminderde. Regenten begonnen het politieke klimaat te beheersen. In vergelijking met de omringende landen was de heersende elite echter opvallend bescheiden.
De politieke macht was in de Republiek overgegaan van de Raad van State naar de Staten-Generaal die onder de soevereine provinciale staten vielen. In theorie waren alle gewesten gelijk en hadden ze alle een stem in de Staten-Generaal. Door het economische overwicht kon Holland deze echter domineren en kon de landsadvocaat van Holland Oldenbarnevelt bij gebrek aan politieke ambities van Maurits optreden als regeringsleider. Daarnaast benoemden de staten een stadhouder, in de praktijk altijd een Oranje. Naast militaire macht had deze door secrete besognes en patronage ook informele politieke invloed. Zolang de belangen van Holland en Oranje overeenkwamen, bleek deze gekunstelde situatie wonderwel te werken, maar daarbuiten kon dit het bestuur volledig verlammen, zoals tijdens het Twaalfjarig Bestand voor het eerst zou blijken. Een bestuurlijke hervorming bleef echter steken bij de vraag of de uiteindelijke macht bij Oranje dan wel bij Holland lag. Slechts Spinoza behandelde de fundamentele vraag over waar de soevereiniteit lag op universele wijze. Hij zag democratie als de best mogelijke staatsvorm.
The middle classes were taking over but there was not any feudelism.
The bit you quoted is about the Republic of the Seven United Provinces of the Netherlands. It took power off the rule of the Spanish Habsburgs. The transition was gradual, and yes Habsburg rule via a number of duchies and prince-bishoprics was thoroughly feudal.

In case you missed it in my previous post, I repeat:
Feudalism was evidently in full vogue in the Netherlands when they were under the Holy Roman Empire; for, as early as 1346, we find the Empress Margaret granting a "handvest" (privilege) which relieved feudal tenants from military service beyond the border, unless the war had been undertaken upon the advice of the "knights, nobles and good towns.'' And so late as 1631 feudalism was of sufficient importance in the Netherlands that the celebrated Grotius devoted thereto (under the title of leen-recht) no less than three chapters (XLI-XLIII) of the second book of his famous commentary on the country's law.
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi ... ontext=clr
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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