Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:17 am

Forty Two wrote: Free market capitalism exists in social democracy.
Drivel, it is a contradiction in terms.

Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:37 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I don't see where I said anything about "pure laissez faire" and neither did Uncle Milton, who explains throughout any of his writings and available videos that there is a role for government.
Milton Friedman very much argues for pure laissez faire capitalism throughout the excerpts you linked to. For instance, he sees no value at all in government policies to alleviate poverty: "If you look at the real problems of poverty and denial of freedom to people in this country almost every single one of them is the result of government action and would be eliminated if you eliminated the bad government failures." (@1:56 in the second link).
He sets forth specifically that he's not an anarchist. He does not deny a role for government. He sees no value at all in the wrong policies to alleviate poverty. His statement about the real problems of poverty and denial of freedom, almost every single one of them is the result of government action. He's right. Government policies intending to help the poor will often exacerbate the situation.

He gives a good example of the war on drugs. Where he says the government policies have done more harm than good. He gives other examples.
Hermit wrote: He goes on to oppose government regulation of (minimum wages) and government run education. Though he does not say anything about the health sector in the clips you provided, I expect he opposes provision of medical services and insurance by governments too. What functions does Friedman approve of other than national defence and enforcement of criminal law? Looks like he very much favours pure laissez faire capitalism, and to the extent you agree with his ideology, so do you.


What functions does he approve of? "If men are going to live in a society, there is no way you can have absolute freedom...we are bound to have limits. And, the question is...what arrangements can we have in society that will minimize coercion while providing the maximum opportunity for members of a society to cooperate with one another to achieve their separate objectives." He then cites John Stuart Mill, On Liberty,"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." That's Friedman's fundamental principle in his discussion on the proper role of government. "From this point of view, the nation-state is a means to an end, not an end in itself." He discusses that "the fundamental unit is the individual and the family, which is in sharp contrast to the notion that the fundamental unit is the state, that you have a nation state and that the individual exists to serve the state." He discusses proper roles of government to include things like national defense, prevention of coercive behavior among the citizenry, internal police functions, promote voluntary cooperation among people by defining the terms under which we will cooperate together, and by adjudicating disputes. He refers to government regulations in broad terms, but describes, for example, property rights as having to be defined by the government (can you fly a plane over my property or are you violating my property rights by doing so - what if you do so at 10,000 feet, 1,000 feet, 100 feet or 10 feet?). One of the most important and basic functions of a government in a free society is to define the rules under which the free market operates. He also talks about a substitute for voluntary cooperation where voluntary cooperation is not possible - where it's not possible to have competition. He refers to phone companies/utilities. Also he mentions externalities - third party effects - where something person X does has effects on other people who have not voluntarily engaged with person X. Where a downstream person gets bad water, for example, from a plant up river - providing a substitute for voluntary association. Then he also suggests a role for government to protect incompetent people - protecting children, mentally handicapped, etc.


Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:...free market capitalism within social democracy as the way to go, which, of course, is not socialism.
Capitalism in social democracies is not nearly as "free market" as Friedman and you would like. Capitalism in social democracies is nothing like the type of capitalism either of you advocate. Stop talking to us as if we were opposed to capitalism. Apart from sandinista and redunderthebed, neither of whom have posted here for years, none of us are. Most of us just subscribe to a different form of capitalism to yours.
Well, I haven't suggested what I would like. How do you even know what form of capitalism I subscribe to? But, why don't you just describe the form of capitalism to which you subscribe? That would be helpful and relevant to the discussion for sure. We can see where your preferred form differs from what Friedman is suggesting.

We're really discussing the point here, as raised by Friedman. And, yes, I'm sure that capitalism in social democracies is not nearly as free market as Friedman would like. In fact, the whole reason Friedman did so much talking in the 70s and 80s, etc., was that he felt the US was not as free market as he would like. He's advancing an idea of free market capitalism that was not really ever enacted in the United States or Europe.

I haven't talked to you as if you are opposed to capitalism. I have not suggested anything about what you believe. I have had other people here - and you can read the comments - Dutchy, rainbow, etc., get really snarky with me over this issue, and suggest even that free market capitalism itself was a contradiction in terms. People express their own opinions ,and you can to. The fact that I've started a thread to discuss the issue of whether free market capitalism is a better means of reducing poverty doesn't mean I think you oppose capitalism. You can state whatever view you have of capitalism. Some people here have come pretty darn close, however, to suggesting that they think capitalism has the opposite effect - making poverty worse, and even that socialism is what helps the poor, etc. That's o.k. That's what a discussion is for. But, I'm not putting words in your mouth at all. If you think I have, I'd ask you to point out where I've done so. I'll be happy to clarify or make a correct.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:39 pm

rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: Free market capitalism exists in social democracy.
Drivel, it is a contradiction in terms.

Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market.
Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market? What economic system would you say is consistent with a free market?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:48 pm

none, a market is either regulated , and then it's not really free, or not, and then the biggest players carve themselves monopolies or states of oligoconcurrence and they imprison the market as surely as would a marxist state.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:50 pm

Forty Two wrote:He discusses that "the fundamental unit is the individual and the family, which is in sharp contrast to the notion that the fundamental unit is the state, that you have a nation state and that the individual exists to serve the state."
Has Uncle Milton ever heard of the false dichotomy fallacy? Seriously, how can anyone value him as a thinker when he repeatedly presents false dichotomies? I can see why conservatives would, as the false dichotomy is their standard tool of argument.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: Free market capitalism exists in social democracy.
Drivel, it is a contradiction in terms.

Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market.
Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market? What economic system would you say is consistent with a free market?
Market Socialism.

Under Capitalism it is allowed to accumulate and own the means of production. This is anti-market as it removes free competition to sell one's labour.

Of course you know that.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:21 pm

Svartalf wrote:none, a market is either regulated , and then it's not really free, or not, and then the biggest players carve themselves monopolies or states of oligoconcurrence and they imprison the market as surely as would a marxist state.
This is not accurate, as suggesting that a market is only free if it is anarchic is not what any free market capitalist means by free market. Regulation is required for there to be a free market. We have to define the rules of the market, for example - an example cited by Friedman includes property rights, which are not self-defining. There is no automatic definition of "property" that applies without a law or regulation. The example of a rule requiring planes to fly a certain height above the ground. Before there were airplanes, the property concept was that if you own a piece of property, you owned the land, and the edges of the property extended up to the heavens, and all the way down to the center of the earth ,with everyone owning little cones, sort of starting at a point, and going to the stars. But, when airplanes were invented, the regulation changed. You can't prevent a person from flying over your property. But, you can prevent him from flying too low, because we can't have people flying planes 20 feet above your house. That doesn't mean the market isn't free. A free market doesn't mean the airline has to negotiate with every property owner in America for the right to fly over their home.

As for monopoly and oligopoly...

I think Milty makes a good point here that in the US, the biggest and strongest monopolies are unquestionably the ones that derive their power from governmental privilege. The monopoly of a TV license, granted by the government. The grant of a tariff protection - restrictions on imports of foreign imports. Trade union protections - Davis Bacon Act, etc. These things help create monopolies.

What private monopolies have been able to sustain themselves over a long period of time without government help? In almost every case, monopolies are very temporary. Most monopolies derive from government intervention and support - railways - trucking, etc.

The free market tends to be anti-monopoly.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:28 pm

Yet Milty reckons that it's ok for the government to have a monopoly on law making. Contradiction much?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:33 pm

rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: Free market capitalism exists in social democracy.
Drivel, it is a contradiction in terms.

Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market.
Capitalism is the antithesis of a free market? What economic system would you say is consistent with a free market?
Market Socialism.

Under Capitalism it is allowed to accumulate and own the means of production. This is anti-market as it removes free competition to sell one's labour.

Of course you know that.

Why are you acting dumb?
Under capitalism "it? is allowed to accumulate and own the means of production? What's the "it" you're referring to?

I'm not sure how a free market removes free competition to sell one's labor. The free market Milton is talking about has freedom to sell one's labor built in.

I don't think you should make ridiculous comments like "why are you acting dumb?" - fuck off. Why in the world is it so hard for SOME people to simply engage in a discussion without these kind of insults? I don't get it? Does the discussion upset you? Have I insulted you? Have I attacked you?

Market socialism is an interesting topic, indeed, albeit somewhat tangential to the present discussion. Given that the two major examples of market socialism that we have are Yugoslavia (RIP) and Cuba, I'd have to have some further discussion and analysis as to how this is supposed to be a better solution to poverty.

Also, nothing you said illustrates how capitalism and free market are contradictions in terms. An you set it out? Milton Friedman is not suggesting they're contradictions in terms. He's fairly well acquainted with capitalism, and free markets, and he's a Nobel Prize winning economist (was). So, maybe he's dumb too, or acting dumb.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:35 pm

I see you have not fucked Milton sideways yet.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:09 pm

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:00 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:I see you have not fucked Milton sideways yet.
...you must be one of those highly advanced Dutch points.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:25 pm

Svartalf wrote:none, a market is either regulated , and then it's not really free, or not, and then the biggest players carve themselves monopolies or states of oligoconcurrence and they imprison the market as surely as would a marxist state.
A good point. :tup:

Also, if Uncle Milt endorses Mill's moral principle that the state may legitimately coerce citizens to alleviate/avoid harms, then surely it is right to tax in order to support the impoverished (unless one is to argue that poverty isn't a harm)?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:37 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Svartalf wrote:none, a market is either regulated , and then it's not really free, or not, and then the biggest players carve themselves monopolies or states of oligoconcurrence and they imprison the market as surely as would a marxist state.
A good point. :tup:

Also, if Uncle Milt endorses Mill's moral principle that the state may legitimately coerce citizens to alleviate/avoid harms, then surely it is right to tax in order to support the impoverished (unless one is to argue that poverty isn't a harm)?
The general principle Milton sets forth is that the government's role is to avoid/alleviate harm by citizens against each other.

It's interesting, though, Milton does not object to alleviating poverty. In the last video I posted above, he discusses exactly that. His suggestion is to have the government enact a negative income tax, so that people who need money get money. He said that poverty is a problem of money. So, give people who need money, money. His objection in economic terms is the role of the government in doling out money like we do now - $X for food, $X for housing, $X for something else - basically determining for the poor what they need to spend their money on. I would think that the notion of the government simply providing sort of a "basic income" that allows people to retain their autonomy and simplifies the process of getting needed money into the hands of people who need money would be a good thing.

I think if some folks here actually took the time to understand where Milty is coming from, they will see that what he's advancing is his view on how to make people's lives better, including the lives of the poor. And, that free markets do not mean anarcho-capitalism, and that regulations are not the same thing as socialism. We seem to run into this notion that if capitalism is not in a state of zero government, no laws, complete anarchy, then it's not really capitalism - and that's a fundamental misunderstanding of free market and/or laissez-faire capitalism, which has not ever meant that. It's not like Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations described anarchy.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:53 pm

FFS shut up about Milton Freedman will you. A pain in the butt. Some over privileged cunt who has not got a clue what poverty is about.
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