Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:40 pm

Jim C - Well, at least we agree that free enterprise is a driver of economic growth. How about we go on and discuss the other drivers (of which there are, you say, many)?

What system does not greedily exploit resources and workers?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:49 pm

:tumble:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:58 pm

Forty Two wrote:Jim C - Well, at least we agree that free enterprise is a driver of economic growth. How about we go on and discuss the other drivers (of which there are, you say, many)?

What system does not greedily exploit resources and workers?
Other drivers (and I'm sure other posters can add to this list):
* technology and science
* the development of the rule of law
* enlightenment thinking
* in the case of the wealthy first world, its past massive and systematic exploitation of both the resources and labour of the third world

As for the second point, it is relative. Countries with a strong attachment to social democratic views manage mixed economies by moderating, imperfectly but significantly, the default position of all private enterprise, which is to maximise personal or corporate profit at all cost, with zero regard for workers or environment (other than the minimum needed for public relations). Political systems are assisted in this balancing by good legal systems, environmental protection agencies, robust unions and a free press. No current capitalist country is without some elements of these, but some manage to reduce the greedy exploitation of resources and workers better than others.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:39 am

Forty Two wrote:Jim C - Well, at least we agree that free enterprise is a driver of economic growth.
So did Marx. He saw capitalism as e revolutionary force that smashed the fetters of feudalism, replacing them with free competition.The result? "The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature's forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground—what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?" (link)
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:44 am

What makes markets free is the very regulations free-marketeers wish to do away with, and only through the development and maintenance of robust democracies can the interests of capital, labour, and market forces be effectively balanced.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:10 am

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Jim C - Well, at least we agree that free enterprise is a driver of economic growth. How about we go on and discuss the other drivers (of which there are, you say, many)?

What system does not greedily exploit resources and workers?
Other drivers (and I'm sure other posters can add to this list):
* technology and science
* the development of the rule of law
* enlightenment thinking
* in the case of the wealthy first world, its past massive and systematic exploitation of both the resources and labour of the third world
Yebbut socialism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:19 am

Companies is a social democratic countries are not allowed to exploit their workers. Strict rules and regulations together with workers councils and boards of commissioners (who are appointed by boards of directors) are in place to give a fair and equal positions to workers and their representatives. Directors salaries and benefits have to be approved by the workers council and board of commissioners of a company. This organisation stops exploitation and leads usually to better working conditions and cooperation within the company. These methods are found in most EU countries except the UK of course.
The board of commissioners has the right to sack the entire board of directors even though they are appointed by them.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:27 am

No no, Dutchy, this is actually free market capitalism that you describe. Haven't you worked it out yet? When something results in good for the poor, it's capitalism. When it doesn't, it's socialism. :prof:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:30 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Companies is a social democratic countries are not allowed to exploit their workers.
Yes they are. They are only prohibited to exploit workers inhumane conditions. The difference between the value of what workers produce and the wages they receive for the production and diverting that difference to privately owned capital to do with whatever one chooses is the core of exploitation. We just accept it as one of those inescapable facts of life like taxation as long as we can put our feet up at the end of the day and, beer in hand, watch the footy without having to worry about where the money for next month's rent or mortgage comes from.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:32 am

Ach zo! That is why this country is the worlds 7th exporter (in real terms).
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:36 am

I think I might count the times that Coito mentioned "socialism" in the thread, and compare it to the number of times he mentioned anything else (other than capitalism). He claims he isn't peddling a false dichotomy. Anyone want to lay a bet on the outcome?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:43 am

Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Companies is a social democratic countries are not allowed to exploit their workers.
Yes they are. They are only prohibited to exploit workers inhumane conditions. The difference between the value of what workers produce and the wages they receive for the production and diverting that difference to privately owned capital to do with whatever one chooses is the core of exploitation. We just accept it as one of those inescapable facts of life like taxation as long as we can put our feet up at the end of the day and, beer in hand, watch the footy without having to worry about where the money for next month's rent or mortgage comes from.
Sorry disagree. The UK has no idea how workers councils function and the control they and the board of commissioners have on a company. They cant do what they want. You dont have boards of commissioners in the UK. These are found in all northern EU countries. The workers councils are elected by the work force and at their monthly meetings a member of both boards take part. This ensures good communication though out the company. Any action a director takes has to be justified to the workers council. This whole system was set up in the 50's after the war and is part of the polder model which again is something the UK has never experienced.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Animavore » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:50 am

Seriously, this is a great book on capitalism which should be read by all as it's the most comprehensive collection of data on capitalism and the inequality it drives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital ... st_Century

Completely demolishes the capitalism as panacea thinking alluded to in this thread (reading indirectly posts replied to people on ignore).And clearly highlights the dangers of unchecked capitalism based on historic fact and not assumptions or ideology.

Third time mentioning it now in a couple of threads. Maybe I'll get a bite this time.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:56 am

Forty Two wrote:Jim C - Well, at least we agree that free enterprise is a driver of economic growth. How about we go on and discuss the other drivers (of which there are, you say, many)?
I've already explained to you that Free Enterprise and Capitalism are incompatible.
...yet you still continue to pretend that they are the same thing.

They are not. :smug:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:00 am

Very interesting Ani. I liked this bit:
The central thesis of the book is that inequality is not an accident, but rather a feature of capitalism, and can only be reversed through state interventionism.[17] The book thus argues that, unless capitalism is reformed, the very democratic order will be threatened.[17]
Which is obviously happening in America. 42 finds this normal.
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