Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:42 am

macdoc wrote:
Macdoc believes in a fantasy world were capitalism isn't rapacious and exploitative. He probably even thinks that capitalism is the best solution to poverty...
Don't be an ass.... :lay:

People are rapacious and exploit others...doesn't matter what particular ism you want to trumpet or defend. Institutions are developed to curb these negative aspects of human nature.

There is nothing inherent to capitalism that is detrimental to the public weal.I think the salient term is "grow up"

......and don't put words in other people's mouths. :nono:
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Brian Peacock wrote:You think the people who assembled your iPhone weren't exploited I take it?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:42 am


pErvinalia wrote:
macdoc wrote:
Macdoc believes in a fantasy world were capitalism isn't rapacious and exploitative. He probably even thinks that capitalism is the best solution to poverty...
Don't be an ass.... :lay:

People are rapacious and exploit others...doesn't matter what particular ism you want to trumpet or defend. Institutions are developed to curb these negative aspects of human nature.

There is nothing inherent to capitalism that is detrimental to the public weal.I think the salient term is "grow up"

......and don't put words in other people's mouths. :nono:
Capitalism is based on competition as opposed to cooperation. It breeds selfishness, which encourages rapacious and exploitative behaviour. Capitalism is more that an economic system. It's an approach to the organisation of society. It's harmful to social cohesion.

There's a common assumption among capitalists that the generation of a profit signifies a certain amount of social value that is derived from people using what they have purchased. Apple's profits on phone sales, for example, are morally justifiable in terms of the 'value' that is derived by individuals using their iPhones and related products - a 'value' to individuals and society that people are willing to pay for: Apple's phone profits are a fair exchange for the 'value' of iPhones to the people in society that use them.

Although this assumption mixes and matches different concepts of value -- the hard, pecuniary value of iPhone sales to Apple and the subjective, personal 'value' to people of owning and using them -- it is nonetheless one that appears to hold true. As consumers we do derive a certain amount of 'value' (and even value) from the things we buy. We can call this 'use value'. As producers Apple derive a certain amount of value from sales depending on what people are willing to pay for for their phones. We can call this 'exchange value'.

The assumption therefore is that what we call profit is simply the extra value, the 'surplus value' if you like, derived from the difference between the exchange value and the use value of a product. It seems intuitively correct for most people, and for many capitalist-minded people is the end of the story when it comes to the moral justifiability of profit. However, it is not just incorrect, but completely bogus. Given my earlier remarks I'm sure macdoc can see what's missing from the value/profit equation here.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:43 am

macdoc wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:10 am
People are rapacious and exploit others...doesn't matter what particular ism you want to trumpet or defend. Institutions are developed to curb these negative aspects of human nature.

There is nothing inherent to capitalism that is detrimental to the public weal.
There are various manifestations of capitalism. All of them facilitate exploitation to some extent. Among the first world economies that of the US would have to be among the most exploitative, the economies of the Nordic countries among the least, and there are of course many others in between.

While I favour capitalist economies with social components, the US economy could, to put it mildly, do more to take care of the common weal than others. The situation where some individuals have accrued many billions of dollars in a relatively short time while some of their full-time employees are paid so badly that they are entitled to government assistance is absurd.

In the three decades following WWII it could be truly said that a rising tide lifts all boats. Since around the mid-1970s that is no longer the case, regardless of whether the US government was run by the Republican or the Democrat Party. Exploitation runs unchecked. The way capitalism is not regulated makes it so.

Image

The usual conservative think tanks don't like this chart, of course, so they fiddle with it until it looks more to their liking. Granted, some non-wage compensation, such as the health insurance component by employers are justifiably added, but adding them does not go wage growth go anywhere near reaching parity with productivity increases. Then they set to fiddling the rest. Depreciation is accelerated, cost of living increases are replaced by a specially designed thing called a Personal Consumption Expenditures index (PCE), and by the time you install the Implicit Price Deflator (IPD), the result looks much more agreeable to the captains of industry. In case of the Heritage Foundation, it looks like this:

Image

The Mercatus Center does even better. By the time it is through with its redefinitions and recalculations, the gap between compensation growth and productivity growth is as good as completely spackled up.

Image

As for the workers, they just don't realise that relatively speaking they have been as well off between 1975 and today as they were between 1945 and 1975. Stupid workers. Can't they read the new, improved graph?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:01 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:42 am
There's a common assumption among capitalists that the generation of a profit signifies a certain amount of social value that is derived from people using what they have purchased. Apple's profits on phone sales, for example, are morally justifiable in terms of the 'value' that is derived by individuals using their iPhones and related products - a 'value' to individuals and society that people are willing to pay for: Apple's phone profits are a fair exchange for the 'value' of iPhones to the people in society that use them.

Although this assumption mixes and matches different concepts of value -- the hard, pecuniary value of iPhone sales to Apple and the subjective, personal 'value' to people of owning and using them -- it is nonetheless one that appears to hold true. As consumers we do derive a certain amount of 'value' (and even value) from the things we buy. We can call this 'use value'. As producers Apple derive a certain amount of value from sales depending on what people are willing to pay for for their phones. We can call this 'exchange value'.

The assumption therefore is that what we call profit is simply the extra value, the 'surplus value' if you like, derived from the difference between the exchange value and the use value of a product. It seems intuitively correct for most people, and for many capitalist-minded people is the end of the story when it comes to the moral justifiability of profit. However, it is not just incorrect, but completely bogus. Given my earlier remarks I'm sure macdoc can see what's missing from the value/profit equation here.
Yes, I can see the problem with that scenario. The extra value goes to shareholders by way of dividends (in Apple's case 20 to 25% of gross revenue) rather than the workers who created it.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:24 am

Hermit wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:42 am
There's a common assumption among capitalists that the generation of a profit signifies a certain amount of social value that is derived from people using what they have purchased. Apple's profits on phone sales, for example, are morally justifiable in terms of the 'value' that is derived by individuals using their iPhones and related products - a 'value' to individuals and society that people are willing to pay for: Apple's phone profits are a fair exchange for the 'value' of iPhones to the people in society that use them.

Although this assumption mixes and matches different concepts of value -- the hard, pecuniary value of iPhone sales to Apple and the subjective, personal 'value' to people of owning and using them -- it is nonetheless one that appears to hold true. As consumers we do derive a certain amount of 'value' (and even value) from the things we buy. We can call this 'use value'. As producers Apple derive a certain amount of value from sales depending on what people are willing to pay for for their phones. We can call this 'exchange value'.

The assumption therefore is that what we call profit is simply the extra value, the 'surplus value' if you like, derived from the difference between the exchange value and the use value of a product. It seems intuitively correct for most people, and for many capitalist-minded people is the end of the story when it comes to the moral justifiability of profit. However, it is not just incorrect, but completely bogus. Given my earlier remarks I'm sure macdoc can see what's missing from the value/profit equation here.
Yes, I can see the problem with that scenario. The extra value goes to shareholders by way of dividends (in Apple's case 20 to 25% of gross revenue) rather than the workers who created it.
Indeed. Though the point I was hoping to explicitly lead macdoc towards is that profit is not derived from the difference between exchange and use value, but the difference between production cost and exchange value. The use value - the value or 'value' of a product to people in society - is neither here nor there, and in fact can be (and often is) counted in the negative without unduly impacting profit. The assumption I outlined is one which presupposes that a profit signifies a good which benefits/enhances the common weal. And my retort to Cunt's meme is that owning an iPhone or MacBook does not disqualify one from expressing solidarity with the indentured labours at FOXCONN's work camps or automatically render one a hypocrite. As pErvy pointed out Capitalism is not merely an economic principle but a system of social organisatio, one which (at present) mediates all social, political, economic, and personal relations.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:12 am

Capitalism is based on competition as opposed to cooperation. It breeds selfishness, which encourages rapacious and exploitative behaviour. Capitalism is more that an economic system. It's an approach to the organisation of society. It's harmful to social cohesion.
not sure how much polemic shit you can pack into one paragraph. :nono:

ALL aspects of human "organization" are subject to rapacious behaviour. Get over your holier than thou shite. :nono:

Why don't you inform yourself instead spouting tripe.

https://areomagazine.com/2019/11/14/the ... apitalism/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cherylsnap ... 2d1b447f0e
•••••
so a person who is free to leave working for a company is being "exploited"?

Uighurs are being exploited and not by capitalism.

How any organization decides to treat those it has some form of governance/relationship with is a matter of choice by those making the rules for that organization.
Laws are supposed to mitigate exploitation regardless of who in an organization is setting policy.
They are too often ineffective.

•••

Apple in the specific does not own Foxxcon and puts pressure on Foxxcon to abide and go beyond the labour laws in their jurisdiction.
Apple's pressure on Foxconn forces improved working ...https://appleinsider.com › articles › apples-pressure-on-...
27 Dec 2012 — After intense scrutiny of its factory working conditions, Foxconn — which builds most of Apple's products — has made significant changes for its ...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:26 am

macdoc wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:12 am
Uighurs are being exploited and not by capitalism.
The current system in China is often described as state capitalism or authoritarian capitalism. Additionally, global corporations, pure capitalists indeed, are obtaining cheap goods made by effectively slave labour in the form of captive Uighurs.
Laws are supposed to mitigate exploitation regardless of who in an organization is setting policy.
Exploitation is possible when there is a clear lack of balance in power between the exploiter and exploited. Corporations set labour policies from understandably selfish motives. That has always been the default position of capitalists, using their power to wring the maximum profit they can with the minimal share given to their workers. Were it not for unions (whose power seems, alas, to be diminishing), an individual worker has very little bargaining power.
They are too often ineffective.
The legal structures and rules in society, including those regulating employment issues, are easily affected by those with the financial clout to influence those political decision makers.Labour laws are ineffective (to a greater or lesser extent depending on the jurisdiction) not randomly or because of incompetence, but by constant pressure from very powerful men and corporations to make them so.

Again, from my point of view this is not a call to "smash the capitalist state". Some aspects of free enterprise are worth preserving, such as its flexibility and ability to innovate. Revolutionary solutions have a dark and dismal history. But we do need to analyse very clearly how the system works, and find ways to prevent the rich and powerful from tilting the board so much in their favour. The huge imbalance in wealth in many western nations, and the entrenched power and wealth associated with it, passed down through generations, is not a healthy structure for the future, nor does it lend itself to confronting global environmental issues.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:31 am

That has always been the default position of capitalists, using their power to wring the maximum profit they can with the minimal share given to their workers
Repeating the same old myths....

Tell me why not a single Kelloggs worker lost their job in the 30s.

You are soooo dated. :nono:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:38 am

macdoc wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:31 am
That has always been the default position of capitalists, using their power to wring the maximum profit they can with the minimal share given to their workers
Repeating the same old myths....

Tell me why not a single Kelloggs worker lost their job in the 30s.

You are soooo dated. :nono:
You pick out one corporation, who was perhaps somewhat more "woke" than the vast majority its fellow capitalists in its day. Plenty of others lost their jobs. What you seem to be implying is that, because it is possible for a company to have a reasonable relationship with its workers, that somehow proves that capitalism, on average, does not exploit its workers. In most cases where there are reasonably harmonious relationships between labour and capital, it will not be because of a "road to Damascus" moment by the bosses, but because a more balanced power relationship has been imposed on capital, either by strong unions or effective labour laws developed in social democracies.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:41 am

macdoc wrote:
Capitalism is based on competition as opposed to cooperation. It breeds selfishness, which encourages rapacious and exploitative behaviour. Capitalism is more that an economic system. It's an approach to the organisation of society. It's harmful to social cohesion.
not sure how much polemic shit you can pack into one paragraph. :nono:

ALL aspects of human "organization" are subject to rapacious behaviour. Get over your holier than thou shite. :nono:

Why don't you inform yourself instead spouting tripe.

https://areomagazine.com/2019/11/14/the ... apitalism/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cherylsnap ... 2d1b447f0e
•••••
so a person who is free to leave working for a company is being "exploited"?

Uighurs are being exploited and not by capitalism.

How any organization decides to treat those it has some form of governance/relationship with is a matter of choice by those making the rules for that organization.
Laws are supposed to mitigate exploitation regardless of who in an organization is setting policy.
They are too often ineffective.

•••

Apple in the specific does not own Foxxcon and puts pressure on Foxxcon to abide and go beyond the labour laws in their jurisdiction.
Apple's pressure on Foxconn forces improved working ...https://appleinsider.com › articles › apples-pressure-on-...
27 Dec 2012 — After intense scrutiny of its factory working conditions, Foxconn — which builds most of Apple's products — has made significant changes for its ...
I'm sure some commune has some space for you
https://www.rewire.org/live-on-a-commun ... d-to-know/ :coffee:
You believe in a fantasy version of capitalism. And where it temporarily exists it moves towards a more selfish and exploitative system. It's why the centre of politics moves inexorably to the right, coinciding with the advent of neoliberalism in the late 70s.

You have a dismall view of humanity. Probably a symptom of being old and conservative.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:13 am

Sorry, tried to edit out that last sentence, but too late. I'm sure you're not actually conservative, although, if you find yourself to the right of centre-left-Jim, you might be getting close to it.. :biggrin:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:05 am

While working conditions at Foxconn factories have not changed a great deal since Apple held a "critical meeting" with Foxconn's top executives in March 2012, Apple bashing is a distraction from the claim Forty Two made in creating this thread, that capitalism is the best solution to poverty. Before I return to it, let me make a comment about Foxconn and another about Apple.

Foxconn is not the only original device manufacturer, although by far the biggest, and Apple is not its only customer, although likely by far the biggest. Further, the Foxconn factories manufacturing Apple products are no better or worse than any other large-scale factories in China, Taiwan or anywhere else in Asia. Working in those factories is arguably better than making a living in a village. The millions of people who flock to them for work attest to that.

For several decades Apple has designed products that have been superior in function, ease of use, manufacturing quality and lower lifetime cost. If you are in any doubt about that, check out IBM. Starting in 2015, the company has switched its computer systems from what used to be "IBM compatible" units to Mac OS. It saves up to $535 per Mac per four years in support costs and claims that its operators are more productive and happier in their work. Apple can charge a premium for two reasons: 1) Its designs are proprietary to the point of constituting a monopoly. 2) Customers are happy to pay for them, regardless of the size of the profit margin Apple manages to cream off. It's just not an issue.

Having (hopefully) dealt with that distraction, I'll return to whether capitalism is the best solution to poverty. Well, command driven economies were manifestly not all that good in terms of consumerism and everyday comfort (although they did well with social services, particularly health and education sectors, and there was no unemployment problem). I'm thinking of conditions behind the iron curtain, where people queued up at supermarkets with mostly empty shelves because they heard rumours that a delivery of bacon is on the way, or where they had to wait for years before they got delivery of their Trabants, which were so scarce that they always sold for more second hand than they cost to buy brand new despite their extremely spartan design and shoddy manufacture. You want a what? A car radio? What's that?. A heater? Don't be ridiculous. A fuel gauge? LOL.) Historically, command economies have never been able to cope with meeting material demands.

So, my reply is yes, capitalism is the best solution to poverty, but not just any form of capitalism. Here my answer is yes and no. It just depends on which flavour of capitalism we're looking at. The Friedmanite, laissez faire flavour so enthusiastically advocated by Forty Two is good for the owners of the means of production. Not so much for the workers. True, the profit motive is a powerful incentive to produce stuff people want, and competition is a powerful incentive to make products superior in quality and price than those of rival owners of factories, but in laissez faire capitalism workers and owners of the means of production are not on an equal footing in the bargaining stakes, except in those rare times when the economy is booming. When it is not, wages and working conditions will always be cut. Because all owners do that, there simply is nowhere else for the workers to go.

This is why I am in favour of a mixed economy - capitalism with comprehensive regulations aimed at protecting the welfare of the workers. It functions well enough, particularly in the Nordic countries. The owners of the means of production continue to turn a profit, competition is preserved and their economies grow, yet the workers' wages and conditions are satisfactory. This state of affairs is almost entirely absent in the USA and disappearing fast in the UK.

Looking at the future, there is one or another big problem on the way. Either 1) Our comfort comes at the cost of Asian workers. This will not always be the case. Eventually labour will organise with the creation of unions that are not government controlled. This is where the price of our mobile phones, computers, washing machines, cars and whatnots will become rather expensive, possibly to the point of becoming luxury items affordable to a decreasing number of people. We'll have to kiss our cushy existence goodbye. Or worse 2) That is unless production methods keep improving to the extent that more units of consumer goods can be produced at less cost. This has of course been happening since Henry Ford introduced conveyor belts in his factories, but the process of automation will need to accelerate, which in turn will cause massive unemployment. The market that is supposed to buy the products - people who earn money - will keep shrinking, perhaps near to the point of disappearance. Capitalism bites its bum. Terminally.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:09 am

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:34 am

macdoc wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:31 am
Tell me why not a single Kelloggs worker lost their job in the 30s.
Tell me why 24.9% (1933 figure) of the US workforce did.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 am

macdoc wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:09 am
it's all about choice ....

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201511/pau ... rowth.html
Do you think this would work with Apple?
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