Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:59 am

If it's a choice to be ethical rather than maximise profit, then it's one that few capitalist companies make, unless forced to by government, in which case it's not really a choice.

But sure, it's not black and white, and some smaller enterprises can make greener choices, or can decide to treat workers better than average (which in some cases might pay off in terms of loyalty and better productivity). But the inevitable tendency for the majority of capitalist organisations, particularly if large and multi-national, is to see no other influence other than the financial bottom line. They have no connection to a local community of workers, which some early capitalist chieftains did, leading to a somewhat patronising, but still admirable, regard for their worker's lives...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:15 am

macdoc wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:30 am
Knee jerk blaming capitalism for humans ( including gov aiding and abetting ) behaving badly. Gets tiresome.
Guns don't kill people. People do. :roll:

What gets tiresome, Mac, is your mantra that the principles and ideals of capitalism cannot lead to undesirable results - that those results must always be sheeted home to bad people. Free-market capitalism is an open-ended means for exploitation, chiefly, but not limited to the exploitation of labour.

I may as well quote a post written nine posts above yours.
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:38 am
macdoc wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:59 am
So does this open predation under the legal system condemn the entire legal system of Alabama ...or legal systems of all kinds because of a seriously rotten barrel of apples.

https://www.al.com/news/2022/01/police- ... ource=digg

That's what too many of you would have us believe about capitalism.

Humans behaving badly toward their fellows is not confined to any ism. It's a choice individuals or groups make and is at its most invidious when enabled by the state as this is.

Religions, unions, the military, the boy scouts. realtors.....all can choose to be predatory ....
so too can a capitalist choose to be predatory or not.

Governments tasked with curbing predation can choose to look the other way and do too often enabling excesses that enrich one group over another in a manner deemed "unfair"....allowing something like a drug company to prey on diabetics by bringing in 600% increases in insulin....a drug whose discovery was freely give to humanity by its discoverers.
When inventor Frederick Banting discovered insulin in 1923, he refused to put his name on the patent. He felt it was unethical for a doctor to profit from a discovery that would save lives. Banting’s co-inventors, James Collip and Charles Best, sold the insulin patent to the University of Toronto for a mere $1. They wanted everyone who needed their medication to be able to afford it.
They made a choice within a capitalist sytem.

If we want to curb excesses from any ism it is up to individuals to elect govs that will and to speak out against those predatory practices.

There is nothing wrong with competition and capitalism that is inherent.....rather look to the decision makers to curb behaviour that is damaging to the public weal.
Boards are supposed to do that in public companies like Exxon and in fact a shareholder revolt sponsored by the Rockefeller family succeeded in doing so and altered the AGW denial industry Exxon was funding...forcing change.

Whisteblowers have served an important role for exposing predatory behavior- be it unions, scientology, or Enron.

When those in charge of decisions...from the Pope to Elon Musk to Sun Myung Moon fail to act in an ethical manner, then it falls to the government to curb the damaging behaviour and choices.
When gov abets those behaviors ...Big Sugar, Big Tobacco, The Roman Catholics to name a few predators amongst too many.....sad time for humanity
:coffee:
Having another tilt at defending capitalism in general? OK. I may as well copypaste a post from Ratskep. It focuses on the issue of the extent to which individuals can make choices when facing the prime objective of capitalism - profit.
Hermit wrote:
Macdoc wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:plain old capitalism is manifestly awful for the environment
not sure what your point could possibly be
....that companies and indviduals make choices that impact the environment negatively has nothing to do with capitalism.
The choice being made, to maximise profits, has everything to do with capitalism. If that is at the expense of the environment, the welfare of the workforce, the safety of the public or whatever else, so be it.

Sure, theoretically there is a choice between maximising profits regardless of any harmful consequences and making do with a smaller margin in order to avoid causing harm, but in practice the default is to "choose" the former, at least as far as medium and large businesses are concerned. The pressure by shareholders, partners and the stakeholders to maximise return on investments is irresistible. If the returns are deemed not enough - and too often not even too much is enough - the chairman, board of directors, CEO, CFO and/or COO get sacked. Unsurprisingly, all of them want to avoid losing their six to eight-digit annual salaries and bonuses, so they cave in to the shareholders' demands. The shareholders typically don't give a flying fuck about environmental and other repercussions. Those are things that happen somewhere far away in place and time. Why would they care if the Amazon or Tasmania get denuded? They don't live there. It doesn't affect them. This is why disasters great and small keep happening. Focusing on the bottom line alone allowed the tobacco industry to falsely claim that smoking is harmless even though they knew bloody well that it is not. This is why the fossil fuel industry lies its arse off, denying anthropomorphic climate change even though their own scientists knew it was real more than four decades ago. This is why thousands of workers die or are permanently damaged every year in the course of doing their job. All of it is just collateral damage caused by maximising profit. Yes, all of it.

The pressure does not only affect top management. Top management regularly arranges meetings with middle managers to review their performance, which is measured the same way everywhere: How much profit did they generate? And on it goes to lower management, supervisors, office managers and so on, who in turn pull up lowly workers for not producing enough widgets, picking enough orders et cetera. The pressure to cut corners, ignore safety procedures and generally take no heed of what adverse consequences might result is pervasive and almost impossible to resist.

The central principle of capitalism is profit. There is no way of denying it. Laissez faire or free enterprise capitalism of the sort Milton Friedman and the entire Chicago School of Economics (among others) advocate means no regulations. No regulations to counteract the pernicious effects of the economic free-for-all. Laissez faire capitalism is evil.
Solutions to problems caused by the profit motive do not lie in choices made by individuals. They lie with government interventions leading to a hybrid economic system combining capitalism and socialism.
Capitalism is what people do.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:25 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:27 pm
Capitalism sure is the best solution to poverty. Shareholder poverty.
P&O Ferries sacks all 800 crew members across entire fleet

The leading UK ferry operator, P&O Ferries, has sacked 800 British crew across its entire fleet after stopping all its sailings on Thursday.

Unions called on the government to halt what it called a “scandalous betrayal”, with P&O planning to use cheap agency staff to operate its ships.

The operator, owned by the Dubai-based DP World, earlier told crew to return to port and await a “major announcement” in a sudden move likely to cause serious disruption to travel for passengers and freight.

Security staff were preparing to remove crew from ships in Dover and Larne, Belfast, after unions instructed crew not to leave vessels. Coaches carrying replacement agency staff were reported to be standing by at Dover and Hull.

The RMT said that guards with handcuffs were seeking to board ships to remove crew so they could be replaced with cheaper labour...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nouncement
The RMT bears part of the culpability. From its press release, dated 7 April 2016 and titled

RMT sets out six key reasons for leaving the EU:
RMT Press Office:

TRANSPORT UNION RMT today set out six key reasons why it will be advising members to vote to the leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum:

1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers

New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.

2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers

The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.

3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights

It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.

4. Leave the EU to end Austerity

If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.

5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.

6. Leave the EU to support democracy

The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…

“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”


RMT will be promoting the six key points direct to members across all sectors of the transport industry through the union’s RMT NEWS, through branches and reps and through the union’s social media platforms.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT is proud to stand up for the tradition of progressive and socialist opposition to the European Union, an organisation wedded to privatisation, austerity and attacking democracy.

“It would be frankly ludicrous for a union like ours to support staying in a bosses club that seeks to ban the public ownership of our railways, attacks the shipping and offshore sectors and embraces the privatisation of the NHS and other essential services that our members depend on.

“RMT has set out the six core reasons for our members to vote to leave and we will be campaigning hard on this platform.”

Ends
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:35 am

Capitalism is a tragedy of the commons. With the commons being social and environmental health. Sure, some companies can choose to be more socially or environmentally conscious, but unless they can convince consumers that this is something worth paying higher prices for, they are intentionally putting themselves at a disadvantage to their competitors. And what is capitalism if not a competition for profits?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 am

macdoc is right: all social and political economies are rooted in the moral and ethical ground of human relations. The question therefore concerns moral and ethical norms and standards, imperatives and obligations etc, and how those 'values' are expressed through the myriad systems by which we regulate social and political interactions, and; to what ends those systems are created, operated and, where deemed necessary, enforced - and by whom, and in whose interest.

I also agree with macdoc that Capitalism doesn't have to be this way; that our contemporary Capitalist Reality isn't a force of Nature like the tides or a physical law like gravity - it's not, as some have argued, something that exists through inevitable necessity. It's a complex of dynamic systems for sure, an ecology if you will, but an ecology which humans have, to the greatest extent, constructed among themselves. What we have constructed we can deconstruct and, of course, rebuild anew.

That said, I feel that when it comes to thinking about these constructed systems Liberally-minded friends of Capitalism often have a massive blind spot, that being the glaring imbalance of Power in the system - an imbalance which acts to cede control for the creation, operation and enforcement of these social and political ecologies from the wider public social sphere to the narrower private Capital sphere.

To extend the metaphor slightly, the social and political ecologies in which we find ourselves embedded are not only owned and managed (one might say farmed) by Power, but they can only exist within a landscape captured or colonised by Power, a landscape shaped by Power for and in the interests of Power. As a result, from our position within that landscape many of us unsurprisingly have trouble seeing the wood for the trees.

In this regard reducing an analysis of Capitalism to a critique of the moral and ethical norms and standards, imperatives and obligations etc, of individual Capitalists or Capital entities is, shall we say, moot, if we do not first acknowledge and address how Power dominates the social and political landscape and the way it creates, operates, and enforces systems in order to perpetuate its own interests.

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:43 am

pErvinalia wrote:Capitalism is a tragedy of the commons. With the commons being social and environmental health. Sure, some companies can choose to be more socially or environmentally conscious, but unless they can convince consumers that this is something worth paying higher prices for, they are intentionally putting themselves at a disadvantage to their competitors. And what is capitalism if not a competition for profits?
The endgame of Capitalism is planetary death.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:56 am

Hermit wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:27 pm
Capitalism sure is the best solution to poverty. Shareholder poverty.
P&O Ferries sacks all 800 crew members across entire fleet

The leading UK ferry operator, P&O Ferries, has sacked 800 British crew across its entire fleet after stopping all its sailings on Thursday.

Unions called on the government to halt what it called a “scandalous betrayal”, with P&O planning to use cheap agency staff to operate its ships.

The operator, owned by the Dubai-based DP World, earlier told crew to return to port and await a “major announcement” in a sudden move likely to cause serious disruption to travel for passengers and freight.

Security staff were preparing to remove crew from ships in Dover and Larne, Belfast, after unions instructed crew not to leave vessels. Coaches carrying replacement agency staff were reported to be standing by at Dover and Hull.

The RMT said that guards with handcuffs were seeking to board ships to remove crew so they could be replaced with cheaper labour...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nouncement
The RMT bears part of the culpability. From its press release, dated 7 April 2016 and titled

RMT sets out six key reasons for leaving the EU:
RMT Press Office:

TRANSPORT UNION RMT today set out six key reasons why it will be advising members to vote to the leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum:

1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers

New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.

2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers

The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.

3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights

It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.

4. Leave the EU to end Austerity

If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.

5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.

6. Leave the EU to support democracy

The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…

“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”


RMT will be promoting the six key points direct to members across all sectors of the transport industry through the union’s RMT NEWS, through branches and reps and through the union’s social media platforms.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT is proud to stand up for the tradition of progressive and socialist opposition to the European Union, an organisation wedded to privatisation, austerity and attacking democracy.

“It would be frankly ludicrous for a union like ours to support staying in a bosses club that seeks to ban the public ownership of our railways, attacks the shipping and offshore sectors and embraces the privatisation of the NHS and other essential services that our members depend on.

“RMT has set out the six core reasons for our members to vote to leave and we will be campaigning hard on this platform.”

Ends
Brexit means Brexit.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:28 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:56 am
Brexit means Brexit.
And most of the voters who decided in favour of it finished up as its victims. All good, though. They wanted border control

Image

and they got it in spades. It just doesn't look like anything they expected.

Image
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon May 09, 2022 4:26 pm

During the COVID-19 pandemic, industry investment to maintain and increase
production capacity was restrained to preserve capital, resulting in
underinvestment and supply tightness as demand for petroleum and petrochemical
products recovered.
EXXON MOBIL CORP Management's Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations

That's probably boilerplate for these guys eh? :hehe:

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue May 10, 2022 1:20 am

Yeah. CEO stock options don't accrue themselves.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Tue May 10, 2022 4:54 am

Where ever did I say "free market capitalism". Mixed economies with strong oversight against abuse work fine expecially in Scandanavian nations which maintain a high GINI index.

CEO stock options are the "old boys club" in action voted in by boards of directors and are often not even in the best interest of the company.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 am

macdoc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 4:54 am
Where ever did I say "free market capitalism". Mixed economies with strong oversight against abuse work fine expecially in Scandanavian nations which maintain a high GINI index.

CEO stock options are the "old boys club" in action voted in by boards of directors and are often not even in the best interest of the company.
You seem so easily triggered by any discussion around these issues.

Yes, 'stock options are the "old boys club" in action' and 'are often not even in the best interest of the company', but they and similar regimes which defer taxes and maximise remuneration at the top level of a business are the accounting norm, from the SME up to the trans-global corporate level. The big boys just do it bigger.

What you refer to as the old boys network is just a synonym for 'class', to wit; the capital class. Capitalism operates to service and secure the capital interests of the capital class. The decision of the Exxon Mobil board to park capital on the books to maintain share prices etc--to which executive pay and dividend are pegged--is simply another example of how Capitalism proceeds in the absence of wider social obligations to the public good, whether to employees or suppliers, or even the company as a whole - let alone the tax man.

I'll say it again, Capitalism operates to service and secure the capital interests of the capital class. And before you pipe up with the "not all capitalists" red herring: sure, 'not all capitalists' are venal monomaniacs without a social conscience. But at the same time to reduce objections to and criticism of Capitalism to a moral claim that capitalist are venal monomaniacs is not only a strawman but it does nothing to acknowledge the over-arching structural nature of contemporary Capitalism or the deleterious impacts those structures have on the material conditions of real people.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Wed May 11, 2022 5:32 am

Realistically, aside from a complete societal collapse, a mixed economy of free enterprise plus government power will continue in most western democracies. I think all we can hope for is more effective, systematic government oversight, plus increasing action to reduce fossil fuel use, hopefully from both sectors. Not perfect by any means, and many current western democracies (including the US and Oz) have allowed the capitalist sector far too much leeway, but revolutionary change is pie in the sky...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 11, 2022 9:51 pm

Where politics and the media has been so thoroughly captured by the capital class even moderate change seems pie in the sky.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 12, 2022 4:42 am

Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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