Forty Two wrote:even though most religious people do not act out in accordance with their beliefs, that does not mean that having deeply held religious beliefs does not motivate behavior.
Yes. Quite. Nevertheless it remains really difficult to explain why the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, or why terrorism is not equally prevalent in time and location.
The same applies to Christianity. Once upon a time verses such as Matthew 10:34, Luke 19:27 and Luke 14:26 were taken quite literally, and they caused hundreds of thousands of Christians to behave very much the way today's Islamic terrorists do, conducting holy wars, indiscriminately slaying man woman and child. They took those words very literally. It's a rare Sunday indeed, in which a cleric will base a sermon on them today, and if he does, he'll be at pains to thoroughly recontextualise and reinterpret them. Just parables and all that. Don't take them literally, people. More likely, though, those verses are simply ignored even while they remain in the new testament. I see no reason why this cannot happen with the equivalent surahs in the Qur'an. In fact, as far as the vast majority of Muslims is concerned, it already has.
So the question is not "what in the scriptures is it that turns people into monsters?" It is "what makes people cherry pick the monstrous bits of their scriptures at one time and not another?"
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
Sent from my penis using wankertalk. "The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007. "Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that.. "Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt. "I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
Forty Two wrote:even though most religious people do not act out in accordance with their beliefs, that does not mean that having deeply held religious beliefs does not motivate behavior.
Yes. Quite. Nevertheless it remains really difficult to explain why the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, or why terrorism is not equally prevalent in time and location.
It's not difficult to explain. Most people of whatever nationality are about the same as most other people. We're all born with similar brains, and that's where our consciences and morality sits. Most people are born and raised that it's bad to hurt other people. Religion goes against that tendency among humans to not want to hurt each other by trying to build up an exception to that morality that it is good and desirable to hurt those that are in opposition to "us."
The Bible does that, by suggesting that "thou shalt not murder" but the writers don't give a second thought to massacring and raping the people in the other tribe that are not of the same religion. They are opponents of god, and it's not murder to kill the opponents of god.
What religion does is increase the number of people in a society that will act out in that manner. Look at the stats in Islamic countries. They have x% that will do the deeds, and then (x+y)% that will support those who will do the deeds (even though they themselves will not do the deeds). So, like, in our western, secular societies, there are very few religious people (call it "v") who would murder apostates, in a country where the State religion mandates death as the penalty for apostates, then some higher number, v+x, will be willing to murder apostates. And, v+x+y will be willing to say they think it's right that apostates be murdered, even though they themselves won't do the murdering.
It would be surprising for all Muslims to be apostate-murderers, just as we would be surprised to learn that all Christians were abortion doctor killers. But, just as we get more abortion doctor killers as we get more extreme, fundamentalist Christians around, we get more terrorists going after infidels, Jews and apostates with a greater degree of fundamentalist Islam around.
Hermit wrote:
The same applies to Christianity. Once upon a time verses such as Matthew 10:34, Luke 19:27 and Luke 14:26 were taken quite literally, and they caused hundreds of thousands of Christians to behave very much the way today's Islamic terrorists do, conducting holy wars, indiscriminately slaying man woman and child. They took those words very literally.
Indeed, but not all, and not most. But, enough to where it was a significant problem. That's why it's important for religions to be reformed, and for States to not mix with Church or Mosque. Religion is a powerful thing, as it becomes the among the most deeply held beliefs that people have, and people often support actions in conformity with their most deeply held beliefs and in some cases, things that would otherwise be thought immoral become moral imperatives because they are handed a divine warrant.
Hermit wrote:
It's a rare Sunday indeed, in which a cleric will base a sermon on them today, and if he does, he'll be at pains to thoroughly recontextualise and reinterpret them. Just parables and all that. Don't take them literally, people. More likely, though, those verses are simply ignored even while they remain in the new testament. I see no reason why this cannot happen with the equivalent surahs in the Qur'an. In fact, as far as the vast majority of Muslims is concerned, it already has.
Well, I'm not concerned with the vast majority of Muslims. They can believe what they like. What I'm concerned with are the small, but plenty big enough, percentage that act out violently because of their religion.
So the question is not "what in the scriptures is it that turns people into monsters?" It is "what makes people cherry pick the monstrous bits of their scriptures at one time and not another?"
I never asked the former question, and I agree with the latter. Somehow, people wind up concluding that killing civilians is not only in accord with but commanded by their religion. Something happens in their heads to convince them of that, and give them the sack to carry it out. I have no idea of the answer to that question. Brainwashing. Mass hypnosis. I don't know. But, the religion is to blame, particularly where the people acting out say that they are doing it for religious reasons.
To say, for example, that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam is absurd. All that means is that ISIS has nothing to do with some other peoples' conception of Islam. However, ISIS says they are motivated by Islam. They quote the holy books they are following. They follow their Islam. Therefore, their religion is to blame.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
Humans do have a natural tendency to harm other people. I think that historically, religion actually helped to overcome this tendency by helping to increase the set of people who belong to the in-group.
Humans usually need a reason to harm other people. Religion is certainly not the only reason, but having a divine warrant comes in handy to get a human to do the deed.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
No, humans originally need no reason but "not from my family". Read up a bit on hunter and gatherer societies. Spotting any unknown human would usually result in death, except for stealing females for mating.
NineBerry wrote:No, humans originally need no reason but "not from my family". Read up a bit on hunter and gatherer societies. Spotting any unknown human would usually result in death, except for stealing females for mating.
That's a reason - suspicion of outsiders - you aren't in my small hunter-gatherer group, and trusting you is a huge risk, with possible devastating results, as the loss of one or two key folks in my group could mean demise of the whole band. That's a solid reason for killing.
Giving a divine warrant to that action just makes it all the better. If you have a group of folks, as the risk of dealing with an outsider is perceived to drop, then to get a person to start shooting is going to take some additional motivation. A good way is to make someone believe in something with all their heart, and to decide that the thing in which they believe is more important than life itself. Do that, and there is a logical reason to kill for it.
You do like youtube videos, right?
Some of them, sure. Don't you? I'll take a peek at the ones you've posted. I think I've seen at least one of them, the third one. But, I'll double check.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
Forty Two wrote:Somehow, people wind up concluding that killing civilians is not only in accord with but commanded by their religion.
Yes indeed, but it's not the text in the scriptures itself. If it were, you'd have to explain why particular verses or surahs influences some people to become terrorists while the very same verses and surahs do not. So far you have manifestly failed to explain why their influence is so selective in place and time. You actually admitted as much in the sentences immediately following the one I quoted above ((which itself starts with "Somehow"!)
Forty Two wrote:Something happens in their heads to convince them of that, and give them the sack to carry it out. I have no idea of the answer to that question. Brainwashing. Mass hypnosis. I don't know.
Then, after all your somehows, somethings, no ideas and don't knows you commit the mother of all non sequiturs by concluding
Forty Two wrote:But, the religion is to blame, particularly where the people acting out say that they are doing it for religious reasons.
I keep prompting you to explain why those evil texts exercise their evil influence so selectively, and you keep failing to realise that the fact that they do not exercise that power most of the time and with most of the people means that they in themselves do not have that power at all.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
To say, for example, that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam is absurd. All that means is that ISIS has nothing to do with some other peoples' conception of Islam. However, ISIS says they are motivated by Islam. They quote the holy books they are following. They follow their Islam. Therefore, their religion is to blame.
I agree 100%. Too many commentators go soft on this issue, saying, in effect that ISIS and other jihadists are merely perversions of Islam, and so the "real Islam" is blameless. Poppycock!
NineBerry's points are also important - religions of all types get a big helping hand via our in-group/out/group psychological heritage from our evolutionary past.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk. "The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007. "Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that.. "Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt. "I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
Education is the key.
There is a school of thought in Islam which says that 'Jihad' is really concerned with the 'soul' and means that when seeking the path to 'God', one must reject and divorce oneself from the material way of life. That includes family, friends and property.
Unfortunately, the twisted and uneducated (in this respect) followers interpret this 'Jihad' to be a completely materialistic exercise demanding that all 'opposition' be physically removed, that is, killed.
This is similar to Jesus in Matt. 10:34 where he talks about bringing a sword. This is a metaphor for the follower (of Jesus) to isolate and separate themselves from 'family, friends and property' - to split apart. This metaphor was well understood by the peoples of that time under the yoke of Roman occupation.
Again, unfortunately, the idiots who hadn't a clue what this Jesus guy was talking about, set about killing people using this 'teaching' as an excuse. And there are still some 'fire and brimstone' types who still believe this - fortunately few and far between.
Anyway, that isn't anything to do with 'mini-skirts'...
Last edited by Alan B on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power - Eric Hoffer.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer proof nor do I have to determine absence of proof because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
Forty Two wrote:Somehow, people wind up concluding that killing civilians is not only in accord with but commanded by their religion.
Yes indeed, but it's not the text in the scriptures itself. If it were, you'd have to explain why particular verses or surahs influences some people to become terrorists while the very same verses and surahs do not. So far you have manifestly failed to explain why their influence is so selective in place and time. You actually admitted as much in the sentences immediately following the one I quoted above ((which itself starts with "Somehow"!)
The text of the scripture is not, per se, the religion. The text of the scripture is part of the religion, but this is not a 1 for 1 trigger situation where "verse 21:12" causes people to fly into murderous rage. This is about what people "believe." Some surahs or verses of holy books influence some people because of what those people "believe."
I have not claimed any "selective influence" of verses. I've claimed that people's religions motivate their behaviors. Their religion is in their head. Most of the Crusaders never read the Bible, because it was not in English, or French, and they couldn't read the Latin versions. The "verses" didn't motivate them. Their religious beliefs motivated them.
The scriptures influence the beliefs, but the scriptural verses themselves are not if/then causes where reading a verse causes x% of the population to go kill people.
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Something happens in their heads to convince them of that, and give them the sack to carry it out. I have no idea of the answer to that question. Brainwashing. Mass hypnosis. I don't know.
Then, after all your somehows, somethings, no ideas and don't knows you commit the mother of all non sequiturs by concluding
Forty Two wrote:But, the religion is to blame, particularly where the people acting out say that they are doing it for religious reasons.
I keep prompting you to explain why those evil texts exercise their evil influence so selectively, and you keep failing to realise that the fact that they do not exercise that power most of the time and with most of the people means that they in themselves do not have that power at all.
I haven't argued that a verse causes people to get up like zombies and do the verse's bidding.
Religion is to blame because the people committing the terrorist acts SAY they are doing it based on their religion. I'm not attributing it to someone who is advancing a political motive. You have a group of people who say "we want to create an Islamic caliphate, and we're going to hang apostates, and throw homos off the rooftops because Allah commands it..." - what's in the Koran is evidence of what Allah commands, so the religious adherents look in the book and find surahs that help justify their religious beliefs.
They hold these religious beliefs. They consider them deep, important, truths in their lives. They think they have commands and warrants from God, the all powerful ruler and creator of the universe, that will be affording them Paradise, or hell in the afterlife. They truly believe these things. And, they get themselves a head of steam to be able to carry out what they think is God's will.
I don't have to wonder why people who aren't of that mindset don't go off half-cocked after reading verses in the Koran or the Bible. Just because everyone isn't motivated by their religion to act out violently doesn't mean that the religion does not cause SOME people to act out violently. And, it does cause some people to act out violently, enough for it to be a serious and significant problem for those of us who don't particularly want to be on the receiving end of God's throbbing will.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
I think we are confusing 'belief' (derived from the individual believer reading the holy book themselves) with a religious leader interpreting the text and telling the believer what to believe.
With some religions, particularly with Islam at its present stage, the believer dare not question the words of the leader (even if the leader is wrong). The believer must follow the crowd (or be declared apostate).
Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power - Eric Hoffer.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer proof nor do I have to determine absence of proof because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
which says that 'Jihad' is really concerned with the 'soul' and means that when seeking the path to 'God', one must reject and divorce oneself from the material way of life. That includes family, friends and property.