Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

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Whose Hard Brexit do you want to get shafted by?

Poll ended at Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:01 pm

Labour's Hard Brexit!
0
No votes
Tory Hard Brexit
1
13%
Cheese or bacon or something
7
88%
 
Total votes: 8

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Rum
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Rum » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:38 pm


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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Alan B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:50 pm

I haven't read all of this thread, so this might have been mentioned.
If the DUP fall out with the Tories, can May ask for our money back?
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Feck » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:36 pm
From over here it looks like a failed attempt to weaken the EU.
No. It was racism, just good old British racism .
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Rum » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:19 pm

I don't think it is that simple. Perhaps it depends on how you define the term. Certainly, there was concern about people of other races becoming a significant chunk of the UK population - for a number of reasons. If that is racism then sure. And of course there were 'hard' racist views in the mix too.

Rather more people were nervous about the impact on the country of so many people from other countries settling here - on culture, services and so on. I know a good few people with liberal and tolerant views who expressed those sorts of concerns. I don't think they were being racist. Sadly a lot of them were afraid to express those concerns because the far end of the other view on the subject did automatically label them as horrible racist fascists very often.

Personally, I had no problem with the changes that were happening - pretty visibly in the case of my small city. Diversity is good as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 am

6 June 2017
Nuf said.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Rum » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:51 am

You are incapable of gracefully admitting it when you are wrong aren't you?

Their policy has not changed. In their hearts they might wish to build a huge fucking wall between NI and Ireland, but their policy is for a 'frictionless border'.

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:56 am

Rum wrote:I don't think it is that simple. Perhaps it depends on how you define the term. Certainly, there was concern about people of other races becoming a significant chunk of the UK population - for a number of reasons. If that is racism then sure. And of course there were 'hard' racist views in the mix too.

Rather more people were nervous about the impact on the country of so many people from other countries settling here - on culture, services and so on. I know a good few people with liberal and tolerant views who expressed those sorts of concerns. I don't think they were being racist. Sadly a lot of them were afraid to express those concerns because the far end of the other view on the subject did automatically label them as horrible racist fascists very often.

Personally, I had no problem with the changes that were happening - pretty visibly in the case of my small city. Diversity is good as far as I'm concerned.
I think you're correct, to some extent. We've all notice how Britain has become a more diverse, multicultural nation over the last 40 years or so. However, the issue in this regard is that ardent Leavers weaponised that difference and cited it as a cause of all the nation's ills. First they defined Britishness in terms of a 'white indigenous population' and then simplistically declared that if you couldn't get a doctor's appointment, a local school place for your kids, somewhere to live or a good and secure job etc it was because the EU had made the government give outsiders' preferential treatment. The aim of course was not to 'take back control' from the EU but to cede even more political control to exactly the same people who have depressed the economy and made it difficult to get a doctor's appointment, a local school place for your kids, somewhere to live or a good and secure job etc.

Brexitarianism was advertised as, and campaign for on the basis of, resulting in a better life for the 'white indigenous population' than remaining in the EU. That remains the central question of the Brexitarian project: will the Tory government's Brexit plan result in a better life than remaining in the EU? Will it?

However, the constituency the government are appealling to is not the population as a whole, or even the "white indigenous population', but that tiny subset of voters upon which the political fortunes if the Tory party depends. The securing of political power is the prime consideration here - the over-riding imperative - not the well-being of the citizenry.

The divisions in the country are an infection, a social contagion which simply mirrors the current state of a long-running internecine conflict between the Tories moderate and far-right wings - a battle for the 'hearts and minds' of the party. Brexit has always been about a Tory power struggle, and the people of Britain are, as always, just the disposable canon fodder caught in the crossfire of their rampant, self-imolating political ambition.
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Rum » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm

How many Brexiteers does it take to change a light bulb?
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
One to promise a brighter future and the rest to screw it up.

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:12 pm

Rum wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:51 am
You are incapable of gracefully admitting it when you are wrong aren't you?

Their policy has not changed. In their hearts they might wish to build a huge fucking wall between NI and Ireland, but their policy is for a 'frictionless border'.
Their policy is for NI to be treated as an equal part of the UK and if a hard border is required then so be it even at the cost of the GFA. Foster herself said it.

Brexit: DUP leader Arlene Foster meets EU officials in Brussels for ‘extensive’ talks
EU rolls out red carpet for DUP in bid to avoid no-deal

“It is vital that the EU from their perspective understands the sensitivities around Northern Ireland and that we’re going to be the only part of the United Kingdom with a land border with the EU after we leave next year,” she said.

The party leader added that she would not accept any checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, rejecting the EU’s bid to “de-dramatise” them.

She has in recent days appeared to shoot down a nascent bid by the British government to compromise on checks across the Irish sea, describing her red-lines as “blood red”. An EU bid to compromise by having checks done in advance appeared not to impress the Ms Foster either.

“Our own government was very clear, and we reiterated the issue last week with the prime minister that there cannot be any customs or regulatory barriers between ourselves and the rest of the United Kingdom – both ways,” she said.

“It’s not just a case of regulations between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, it’s also between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I think that’s very clear, we’ve made that very clear.”
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:17 pm

This her about the GFA:

Arlene Foster says the Good Friday Agre ... she right?
https://www.thejournal.ie/arlene-foster-good-friday-agreement-4263793-Oct2018/ wrote:“I have respect for Arlene, but she is wrong on this,” Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney said.

THIS MORNING, DUP leader Arlene Foster said that the Good Friday (Belfast) Agreement isn’t sacrosanct and can be changed.

This has provoked quite a reaction from politicians and commentators – mostly expressing concern at what her comments could mean in relation to Brexit negotiations and the Irish border.

Foster said to the Telegraph, in an article published this morning:

THIS MORNING, DUP leader Arlene Foster said that the Good Friday (Belfast) Agreement isn’t sacrosanct and can be changed.

This has provoked quite a reaction from politicians and commentators – mostly expressing concern at what her comments could mean in relation to Brexit negotiations and the Irish border.

When asked if she had a choice between a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and checks across the Irish Sea, Foster said:

“Of course there’s a border there at the moment: we have a different Vat regime, we have a different currency regime… The government has been very clear that the UK government will not be putting any physical infrastructure at the border.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:55 pm

It is our fate, and arguably our misfortune, to live in an era of great change. Yet even by recent standards, the political upheavals of the past week have surpassed in intensity and gravity almost anything the British people have experienced in the postwar era. The long, often tedious and confusing struggle for Brexit suddenly crystallised into an all-consuming political drama of epic proportions, riveting, infuriating and alarming in equal measures. Bodies litter the stage. The plots and subplots thicken. On all sides the cry goes up of treason and betrayal. But still, if we are honest – and now is a time for honesty – nobody knows how or where this tragedy, this black farce in which we gamble with a nation’s life, will end.

Line by line, clause by clause, the reality of Brexit was finally committed to dry, unforgiving paper. Every page of the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May demolished the stubborn fantasy to which she has clung over the past two years: that there is barely a trade-off to make in leaving the EU, and that we could painlessly slide out of the world’s largest, deepest trading bloc. Every sentence brought into sharp focus the colossal cost of embracing the Brexiters’ delusion of “taking back control”, measured not just in lost billions but in the damage to be inflicted on British citizens, on sovereignty and influence...


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... _clipboard
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm

Rum wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
How many Brexiteers does it take to change a light bulb?
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
One to promise a brighter future and the rest to screw it up.
I heard it with a different answer recently:
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
One to smash a working bulb and the rest to claim we're better off in the dark. :ddpan:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Rum » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:24 pm

(Edit: response to BPs post)

An excellent, if rather gloomy (I read the whole thing) assessment of where we are.

It does rather make the case, at least economically, for a disorderly break and fuck the consequences though, by implication anyway. We are sacrificing the prosperity and influence of the nation to protect the NI situation with the deal we are heding for.

I’m glad I’m not Teresa May. Or poor.

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by JimC » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:23 am

Nelson, Wellington and Churchill are spinning in their graves at very high RPM...
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by rainbow » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:41 am

Backstop, backstop - WTF is "backstop"?

I heard May going on about it, but it made no sense except if one were to assume that Brexit would mean that nothing changes.
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