The Thread of Democrats

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Seabass
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Seabass » Wed May 15, 2019 6:45 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:11 am
For Trump, the investigation and report have always and only ever been about him, and specifically about whether he personally worked with, or knowingly accepted the help of, the Russian leadership. It seems to me that Trump supporters, particularly in the media, have also been fixated on the personal innocence of Trump to the exclusion of everything else, and to such an extent that even the plain fact that campaign personnel were mischievously and malevolently manipulated, were played, cannot be acknowledged. Accepting that fact, of course, does rather cast the campaign and its figurehead in the role of unwitting Russian puppets - having their strings plucked by virtuoso political puppeteers - and so we're seeing a lot of fervent equivocation, obfuscation, and misinterpretation of the kind which 42 has gone in for over the word 'coordination' - as if this term and its meaning is of primary or ultimate significance. To me it looks like 42 is unlikely to acknowledge that the Trump campaign coordinated with the Russians because in his own mind he's still defending the 'collusion' charge, where accepting that there was coordination, even unwitting coordination, weakens not only the defence of the 'collusion' charge but also throws up the unwelcome prospect that the Russians had, and have, more influence over the electoral process, Trump, and the American people than an otherwise reasonable person would be comfortable with. Trump projects and trades on his personal brand as a intelligent man with an over-abundance of skills and an almost super-human insight into the heart of situations, and people, which is not afforded to us regular folks. To accept that there was coordination between the campaign and Russian means that either Trump didn't have knowledge of, and therefore control over, his campaign - he didn't have his finger on the pulse, or even anywhere near it - or that if he did he was personally unconcerned by what he saw. Neither of these things cast Trump in a good light, and as Trumpism is essentially a cargo cult certain beliefs have to be maintained at all costs, and the primary moral imperative of course is to defend the honour of The Glorious Leader, even over an acknowledgement of the Truth. If one isn't defending the figurehead, even when one has personal doubts, then one isn't a true 'true believer' - in which case one is literally no better than the great mass of morally inferior, unsanctified, a-cultists.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:47 pm
I gotta say I'm not seeing why I'm supposed to be upset at Trump and co because their campaign was contacted by Russians pretending to be Americans, who then went on to hold rallies for Trump.

I mean wtf? Tell me it gets better. Tell me you've got someone admitting they knew the Russians would be helping out but just didn't tell the staff, because hey, it's a need to know thing right? :sigh:
That's not the problem Sean. This has nothing to do with Trump. The Russians made patriotic Americans, exercising their political rights, into their unwitting agents. Mueller described it as "Targeting and Recruitment of U.S. Persons," and they did it to more than Trump's people in a few states. They were playing both sides to stir up trouble.

Sure, all Americans did this time was perfectly legal campaign stuff like calling and emailing people, providing signs, speakers, sound systems, and such. The thing is, the Russians were building a network of contacts and relationships to help them in the next election, and the one after that, and not for the good of the U.S.

If left to their own devices, they might even turn some of these people into spies, which sounds melodramatic, but they have a long history of doing things like that. Indicting those Russians for conspiracy and failing to register as foreign agents is probably the best thing to come out of the Mueller investigation. People will be on guard now, and those Russians won't be able to travel to the U.S. so easily.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:47 am
No, I'm responding to your commentary "in kind." If you want to be snarky, you can't expect politeness in return.
Well, you better up your game, kid. If you're gonna respond in kind, you need a far more competent argument, and a lot less juvenile bluster.

You still mad? Seems like it. You posted four times in response to me. What's the matter, you couldn't control yourself long enough to write one good one? :funny:

Anyway, none of what you've written deserves a response other than to step over it like dog shit on the sidewalk. However, I'll throw you a bone and help you with something you overlooked.
Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:10 pm
Joe wrote: The Russians' goal was to "sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election," and the Trump volunteers unwittingly supported them.
The blurb you cite does not say any support was given to "sowing discord" or anything else.
It's funny you missed the quote. I put it at the end.
Joe wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:57 am
Oh yeah, before I go do other stuff, there's one other citation I should share. Remember when I mentioned the Russians' goals? Here's the full quote.
Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants’ operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump (“Trump Campaign”) and disparaging Hillary Clinton. Defendants made various xpenditures to carry out those activities, including buying political advertisements on social media in the names of U.S. persons and entities. Defendants also staged political rallies inside the United States, and while posing as U.S. grassroots entities and U.S. persons, and without revealing their Russian identities and ORGANIZATION affiliation, solicited and compensated real U.S. persons to promote or disparage candidates. Some Defendants, posing as U.S. persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities.
That's from United States of America v A Pack of Russian Cunts.

See, even the USA agrees with me. Kind of makes me proud to be "a True Believer in The Resistance or a Trump-Deranged person," being in such good company.

It seems we outnumber you. Try not to flip your wig kid. :tut:
Didn't read the whole thing, did you kid? I wonder where you left off.

From what you didn't address in your four posts, I'm guessing you stopped reading where I gave proof I read Mueller right, so I'll include it again.
I'm not alone calling it coordination. Here's what Business Insider had to say
Later that summer, the Russians extended their operations into Florida, a critical battleground state in US elections.

Using tactics similar to those they employed in New York, the Russians bought ads on Facebook and Instagram to promote a series of pro-Trump rallies they dubbed "Florida Goes Trump."

They coordinated with Trump campaign staff, who were unaware they were working with Russians, to organize the rallies, and paid real Americans to perform specific tasks during the protests.
CNBC reported it as coordination too
The report clarifies that in the cases in which a pro-Trump, IRA-organized rally also coordinated with Trump’s campaign, the campaign was not aware of the origins of the organizers. “The IRA’s contacts included requests for signs and other materials to use at rallies, as well as requests to promote the rallies and help coordinate logistics.”
Politico read it this way
5) The trolls had 'unwitting' insider help.
One of the biggest bombshells in the indictment is the detail that the IRA trolls allegedly communicated with the people tied to the Trump campaign.

“Some defendants, posing as U.S. persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign,” the document says.

But the indictment adds that these people also communicated “with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities.”
CNN found this example of coordination
Miller was not the only Trump supporter unwittingly co-opted by the Russians for the "Florida Goes Trump" flash mob that took place in multiple parts of the state.

Team Trump Broward County, a Facebook page run by real Trump supporters, publicized the flashmob in the days leading up to the event, and posted pictures and videos from the event after it took place.

Image

Florine Gruen Goldfarb runs the Team Trump Broward County Facebook page, which posted numerous times about events that were promoted and encouraged by the Russians. Speaking to CNN on Sunday, she said she didn't believe she was influenced by the Russians and said she thought that Friday's indictment was a ploy to distract from the FBI's mishandling of tip-offs it had received about the Parkland, Florida school shooter.
Of course, Buzzfeed was all over it
The demonstrations—at least one of which was promoted online by local pro-Trump activists— brought dozens of supporters together in real life. They appear to be the first case of Russian provocateurs successfully mobilizing Americans over Facebook in direct support of Donald Trump.

The Aug. 20, 2016, events were collectively called “Florida Goes Trump!” and they were billed as a “patriotic state-wide flash mob,” unfolding simultaneously in 17 different cities and towns in the battleground state. It’s difficult to determine how many of those locations actually witnessed any turnout, in part because Facebook’s recent deletion of hundreds of Russian accounts hid much of the evidence. But videos and photos from two of the locations—Fort Lauderdale and Coral Springs—were reposted to a Facebook page run by the local Trump campaign chair, where they remain to this day.
Even one of Trump's people described it as coordination
Susie Wiles, one of Trump’s top Florida advisers, said staff and volunteers did their due diligence when planning events and coordinating with grass-roots supporters — but detecting Russian impostors wasn't on anyone's radar.

"We looked out for things when people came to rallies," Wiles said in a phone interview. "We weren't looking for fake Americans that were really Russians. The world seems different now."

Wiles said she does not remember encountering any groups planning rallies or working in coordination with the campaign that seemed outside the norm of traditional political organizations.

“I don’t think anyone had any idea,” Wiles said. “There are always ways someone can manipulate the system, but this was not something we saw.”
My take isn't even controversial, in spite of your disingenuous theatrics trying to make it seem otherwise. I've backed it with actual citations. Can you cite even one source that backs your cuckoo assertions?
People who use English for a living read the Mueller report as I do, so I'll stick with that.

Maybe you should suck it up, and just deal with it.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu May 16, 2019 9:55 am

Joe wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am
This has nothing to do with Trump.
That's a remarkable statement given the last two years Joe!
shut up

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by JimC » Thu May 16, 2019 10:04 am

Whether Tump or his team had any clear knowledge of Russian manipulation of your political system doesn't change the fact that your nation was gamed by a foreign state that does not wish you well...
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 16, 2019 10:09 am

Yebut not illegal.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu May 16, 2019 11:33 am

JimC wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:04 am
Whether Tump or his team had any clear knowledge of Russian manipulation of your political system doesn't change the fact that your nation was gamed by a foreign state that does not wish you well...
It seems obvious to me that the "gaming" of our system is open to everyone at all times.

Anyway, if it's not about Trump shouldn't you be applauding the US finally getting a taste of its own medicine?
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 16, 2019 11:41 am

:clap: :toot:
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Thu May 16, 2019 12:09 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:55 am
Joe wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am
This has nothing to do with Trump.
That's a remarkable statement given the last two years Joe!
Sorry, I was referring specifically to the Russian recruitment piece, and that they were playing both sides against each other.

Obviously, Trump has made himself the centerpiece of the whole kerfuffle.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 16, 2019 1:03 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:55 am
Joe wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am
This has nothing to do with Trump.
That's a remarkable statement given the last two years Joe!
It didn't have to be that way. It could have been an investigation into the extent and scope of Russian interference in the US electoral system, from hacking to misinformation to co-opting unwitting US stooges. But Trump saw it as a challenge to his authority, and as Trump is all about Trump he did more than anyone to make the FBI and subsequent Independent investigations into the affair all about him. One can understand why - acknowledging that the campaign was played, apparently sometimes willingly, could undermine the legitimacy of the result, even if he did win the public vote by the biggest margin since Regan. :)

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Thu May 16, 2019 1:28 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:03 pm
Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:55 am
Joe wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am
This has nothing to do with Trump.
That's a remarkable statement given the last two years Joe!
It didn't have to be that way. It could have been an investigation into the extent and scope of Russian interference in the US electoral system, from hacking to misinformation to co-opting unwitting US stooges. But Trump saw it as a challenge to his authority, and as Trump is all about Trump he did more than anyone to make the FBI and subsequent Independent investigations into the affair all about him. One can understand why - acknowledging that the campaign was played, apparently sometimes willingly, could undermine the legitimacy of the result, even if he did win the public vote by the biggest margin since Regan. :)

http://www.trumptwitterarchive.com
That was really driven home to me by Mueller when he drew a clear line between before and after Trump became a focus of the investigation, and that the Comey firing caused that to happen.

I have to think that if Trump had mouthed a few platitudes about protecting our elections, and left Comey alone to finish his work, he'd be in a very different place.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu May 16, 2019 1:44 pm

Yes, it makes sense that he is responsible for a lot of his trouble.

Does it seem likely to either of you that this is Russia's first attempt to interfere in our elections? Can we assume that other investigations into their interference have happened, are happening, and we are unlikely to hear about them?
shut up

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by JimC » Thu May 16, 2019 9:14 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:44 pm
Yes, it makes sense that he is responsible for a lot of his trouble.

Does it seem likely to either of you that this is Russia's first attempt to interfere in our elections? Can we assume that other investigations into their interference have happened, are happening, and we are unlikely to hear about them?
Given the cold war level of paranoia, directly attempting to manipulate US politics was unlikely then. I think two factors have been important in recent years - the rise of Putin, with his focus on "foreign enemies" to bolster his position, and the development of a social media system with an in-built vulnerability of manipulation.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri May 17, 2019 12:13 am

In the UK the Russians are just more blatant about things. Sure they bought a lot of ad space during the runup to the Brexit referendum, and played both sides off against each other, but they're just more out-in-the-open generally. We have a strange system here where you can legitimately buy access to government ministers in the guise of a donation to the party. All the top Tories have regular 'fund raisers': the PM has a dinner club which costs you £50,000 for a five-course dinner in her presence (and apparently she's charming( and other ministers have similar clubs - though at a reduced price point; accesss is often raffled off in the form of a visit to Wimbledon with minister X or tennis match with minister Y as your partner; and of course the Russians have been buying all the most expensive property in London and elsewhere for a long time - along with the top flight of football clubs. There's nothing that embeds you in the political party of Landlords more than being a land owner onself, it makes your 'one of us' without even having to try.

Putin embraces globalisation and globalism untroubled by the decadent ethics of such ventures abroad nor in fear of the appearances at home. No wonder Trump admires him so much - he'd be exactly the same given half the chance, including inspiring journalists and witnesses to suddenly take to the air from a third story window.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Fri May 17, 2019 12:46 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:44 pm
Yes, it makes sense that he is responsible for a lot of his trouble.

Does it seem likely to either of you that this is Russia's first attempt to interfere in our elections? Can we assume that other investigations into their interference have happened, are happening, and we are unlikely to hear about them?
It's not. I remember reading that they tried to undermine the Reagan campaign in 1980, and there were reports of them influencing anti-war groups in the 1960's and early 1970's. I'm sure there's more, but this is supposedly a major escalation for them. Social media makes it faster, cheaper, and easier to spread disinformation.

I remember reading that the British ran a significant influence operation in the 1940 US elections, so it's definitely not a new thing. :biggrin:

Foreign influence in our presidential elections has been a concern since the Constitutional Convention. It was actually a factor in the design of the Electoral College.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
"If you vote for idiots, idiots will run the country." - Dr. Kori Schake

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