Confederate Flag to Fly at City Hill in Belleview, Florida

[JimC]

I didn't roll out tu quoque. Strontium Dog did, by pointing to Nazi Germany, saying it would be bad to honor Nazis and therefore it's bad to honor Confederates.

And, the point of me saying every country had slavery for most of human history is that if it's wrong to remember and honor the history of countries that had, advanced, or supported slavery, who would 'scape whipping? Is the Confederacy a special case?

The Civil War is a major part of American history. The country literally split into two -- a union of northern states and confederacy of southern states, and went to war. So, here, the town wants to fly a Confederate flag on Confederate History Day to remember that history. Nobody is saying that slavery was honorable. One might liken it to having a holocaust museum. It's there to remember the history, and to help encourage people to learn the history and understand it, not to condone it.

No one is, or should be arguing that Confederate history should be never examined, or that no-one should ever catch a glimpse of that evil flag (seen as bumper stickers in southern states quite often, I believe)

What is obviously of concern here is the flag being officially flown at a government building. I know what would have happened to someone trying to do that in, say, 1870, with plenty of pissed-off Union soldiers around...

[Brian Peacock]

Will they be flying this come next Martin Luther King Day?



Or this next Native American Day?

[mistermack]

Why are the South singled out?

Maybe for honouring the soldiers and their leaders who fought for the right to own slaves?

They actually fought for the right to split from the Union.
The motivation behind the war was not as simple and clear-cut as you like to portray it.
And anyway, after the war of independence, slavery was legal in the US under the stars and stripes for nearly a hundred years.
Millions of people lived their whole lives as legally owned slaves, with the stars and stripes as their flag.

[Hermit]

The motivation behind the war was not as simple and clear-cut as you like to portray it.

The American civil war was first and foremost about slavery. All other disputes, such as the fight over states rights and so forth arose from that.

And anyway, after the war of independence, slavery was legal in the US under the stars and stripes for nearly a hundred years.
Millions of people lived their whole lives as legally owned slaves, with the stars and stripes as their flag.

That makes fighting for the right to own slaves alright then?

It's worth mentioning that the flag pictured in the opening post is not the national flag of the Confederate States of America. It is the battle flag of its army. Nobody in the army cared about the finer constitutional points. They did care for the right to own slaves. That's what they fought and killed for.

[Forty Two]

I didn't roll out tu quoque.

No? What were you doing then? Just mentioning that every country had slavery for most of human history to put the honouring of soldiers who fought for the right to own slaves into its proper context?

Well, no. I mean, the soldiers fought for the south, and for their state. Most of them did not own slaves and had no means of obtaining slaves.

All good then. Most German soldiers did not fight for the extermination of Jews. They fought for their country. So I guess there can be no objection to flying the Nazi flag in their honour.

The flying of the flag is in honor of Confederate History Day, not to honor slavery. There are massively negative aspects to American history in general (and European history too, by the way) but we don't see massive objection to flying their flags. The Flag of St. George, for example, is a symbol of repression, monarchy and aristocracy to some, as well as colonialism and conquest, as is the Union Jack - which flew over an empire of conquest that oppressed the Indians, much of Africa, and much of the east, as well as in the the New World.

Are the American and British flags flown to "honor" people who fought against American Indians, or who fought in centuries of colonial wars?

[Hermit]

I didn't roll out tu quoque.

No? What were you doing then? Just mentioning that every country had slavery for most of human history to put the honouring of soldiers who fought for the right to own slaves into its proper context?

Well, no. I mean, the soldiers fought for the south, and for their state. Most of them did not own slaves and had no means of obtaining slaves.

All good then. Most German soldiers did not fight for the extermination of Jews. They fought for their country. So I guess there can be no objection to flying the Nazi flag in their honour.

The flying of the flag is in honor of Confederate History Day, not to honor slavery.

Let's fly the swastika in honour of Third Reich History Day, not to honour the holocaust. Would that too be OK with you?

[Scot Dutchy]

You want to honour confederate history? Why? For the stupid killing of so many people? This celebration of war I find disgusting. Celebrate peace and peace agreements but war!

[Brian Peacock]

Ordinary people on all sides die in war, both in conflict and as a consequence. I see no problem with honouring the fallen. Confederate Heroes Day is not a new thing - it's been running since the end of the civil war. The problem, it seems, is not with honouring the fallen but with state bodies displaying a flag that has become associated with Southern far-right and white-supremacist groups - in a similar way that the flag of St George has become associated with similar groups in the UK. The answer is to reclaim the flag for all people as a representative banner of all people. This is not so easy of course, particularly when certain groups assert particular ownership and exclusive use of the emblem, and the Second Confederate Navy Jack was never intended to represent all the peoples of the Southern States but to be the national banner of an independent country whose economic imperatives were to be based on the principles of forced servitude.

Of course, I knew nothing of this while enjoying the Dukes of Hazard as a teenager.

[Forty Two]

Will they be flying this come next Martin Luther King Day?



Or this next Native American Day?

I don't know. I don't see what would be wrong with it, if they did. But, I also don't see why flying X, Y or Z flags would require that A, B, or C flags also be flown. Does equal treatment require municipalities to fly every flag that exists? Maybe nobody proposed to the city council that those other flags be flown.

[Forty Two]

Let's fly the swastika in honour of Third Reich History Day, not to honour the holocaust. Would that too be OK with you?

I would not equate the Third Reich with the Confederacy, actually, as the historical context is considerably different. I am also unaware of anything called "Third Reich History Day."

One might perhaps have a better comparison with the German Empire pre-1918. A colonial, imperialistic and autocratic empire. Germany had colonial holdings in Africa, including German East Africa and German colonials held slaves well after slavery was abolished in the US. Germany partially abolished slavery there in 1905. German colonial authorities and settlers were of the opinion that native Africans were to be a lower class, their land seized and handed over to settlers and companies, while the remaining population was to be put in reservations. The Germans planned to make a colony inhabited predominately by whites referred to as a "new African Germany." Germany never actually formally abolished slavery, preferring instead to curtail the slave production and to regulate the extant slaving business.

So, let's say that there was a German History day and one of the flags they wanted to fly was of the German Empire under Kaiser-Wilhelm. Certainly, that is a major piece of German history, and while the time is blighted by racism, genocide, slavery and colonialism, would it somehow be improper to fly the flag of the German empire as part of remembrance of that history?

[Forty Two]

Ordinary people on all sides die in war, both in conflict and as a consequence. I see no problem with honouring the fallen. Confederate Heroes Day is not a new thing - it's been running since the end of the civil war. The problem, it seems, is not with honouring the fallen but with state bodies displaying a flag that has become associated with Southern far-right and white-supremacist groups - in a similar way that the flag of St George has become associated with similar groups in the UK.

Must we credit the extremes on this? I mean, it seems to me that we ought not let the extremists determine public discourse. It's like the heckler's veto - because one group says X that means the rest of us have to hop-to?

Someone brought up the swastika - yes, it's been adopted by far right wackos, but traditionally the swastika was an Indian symbol. Swastika is a sanskrit word meaning "well-being." It's been used for thousands of years by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. In the West, it became a good-luck symbol. Coca-Cola used it in advertising. Carlsberg used it on their beer bottles. The Boy Scouts adopted it and the Girls' Club of America called their magazine Swastika. They would even send out swastika badges to their young readers as a prize for selling copies of the magazine. This was not in any way a Nazi related use.

So, Hitler comes along, and it's now forever off limits in any context?

Perhaps a better way to deprive symbols and words of power is to increase their usage in different contexts, rather than bury them?

The answer is to reclaim the flag for all people as a representative banner of all people. This is not so easy of course, particularly when certain groups assert particular ownership and exclusive use of the emblem, and the Second Confederate Navy Jack was never intended to represent all the peoples of the Southern States but to be the national banner of an independent country whose economic imperatives were to be based on the principles of forced servitude.

Of course, I knew nothing of this while enjoying the Dukes of Hazard as a teenager.

I'm not sure who is claiming particular ownership and exclusive use. If they are, it sounds like identity politics and cultural appropriation theory to me. "This symbol is ours and nobody else's! You may not wear it or display it!"

[Animavore]

Shame it's more associated now with David Duke than Daisy Duke.
The flag is simply offensive to black people. The government flying it shows a lack of respect and a perception of stamping white dominance. They shouldn't fly it.

[Brian Peacock]

... Must we credit the extremes on this? I mean, it seems to me that we ought not let the extremists determine public discourse.

... The answer is to reclaim the flag for all people as a representative banner of all people.

[Forty Two]

You want to honour confederate history? Why? For the stupid killing of so many people? This celebration of war I find disgusting. Celebrate peace and peace agreements but war!

The history of that period and of the confederacy is more than war, nor is it displayed in celebration of war. It's honoring confederate veterans. April is recognized by the state of Florida as Confederate History Month. A city proclamation passed April 4, which will be read at the flag raising ceremony, states that Florida supplied the greatest percentage of its population as soldiers compared to all other Confederate states and that one-third of the Floridian soldiers did not return from war. It's a big part of the State of Florida's history.

[laklak]

Just up I-75 from me, up near the I-4 junction in Tampa. Flies 365 days a year, the largest Confederate Battle Flag in the world. I always salute her and hum a few bars of Dixie...



Various groups have bitched about it and tried to have it taken down, but it's on private land (Confederate Memorial Park), so it will remain there no matter how many people it pisses off.

This here's the Gunshine State, AKA the "Fuck All Y'all State".