The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post Reply
User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 48555
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:02 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 pm
What do you mean by "elective" surgery? Planned in advance? Or optional (like cosmetic surgery)?
Yeah things like cosmetic surgery and things which might be an annoyance to you but not impacting too much on your daily life. Something like an arthroscopy to fix a slightly dodgy knee. If you snap your ligaments then you'll get your op in the public system fairly quickly.
LOL 1% tax on $70k as an incentive to get insurance -- that would mean a man making $100,000 would get hit for an extra Grover ($1,000 bill)? That's less than 2/3 of my post-Obamashit MONTHLY private health insurance bill.
I don't know what private insurance costs here now, but back in the day (15 years ago) you could get coverage for 6 or 700 dollars. From what I've heard the prices have sky rocketed, hence why so many people are swapping back to solely public.
And, as has been pointed out to you many times, you are believing the wrong people when you think premiums went down for the lower strata of society. The lower strata were already getting free $0 healthcare through Medicaid.
You haven't pointed shit out, as you ignore the evidence every time it is presented to you. I'm not talking about the indigent. I'm talking about people who are on low incomes, but which are too high to qualify for Medicaid. L'Emmy (I think), posted data again for you only a few pages ago if I'm remembering correctly. You ignored that data, as usual.
No matter how many times you - in Australia -- without any real info except your faith in bullshit sources - "point it out" it doesn't change reality. I'm pointing it out to you - again - that it ain't fucking true - and I've given sources for this before that have gone unrebutted.
Well go and address L'Emmy's post then. Your personal anecdote of 1 means very little.

edit: it was Tero - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1804360
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"My penis is VERY small" - Cunt.

User avatar
Seabass
Posts: 3914
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:32 pm
About me: Natural instinct for science
Location: The River of Blood
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Seabass » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:07 am

Of course Obamacare sucks. It's a Republican health care system. And of course to make matters worse, the fucking Republicans went and strangled Obamacare in the crib because it was passed by Democrats. The Dems have wanted UHC since FDR, but that's not possible because Republicans ruin everything.
Hey, Torquemada, whaddaya say?
I just got back from the auto-da-fé.
Auto-da-fé, what's an auto-da-fé?
It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway...

"I am a sick man... I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."

“In the meantime, rest well and dream of large women.”

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14409
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am

Seabass wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:07 am
Of course Obamacare sucks. It's a Republican health care system. It's a Republican health care system bolted onto the HMO Act, which is another Republican health care system. And of course to make matters worse, the fucking Republicans went and strangled Obamacare in the crib because it was passed by Democrats. The Dems have wanted UHC since FDR, but that's not possible because Republicans ruin everything.
I don't care whose it is, it does suck, but this post of yours is a pathetic load of bullshit. If that's what you thought it was, why the fuck would you have supported it ever?

UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.

What works is a voluntary, market driven health care system, with a solid social safety net for those who cannot afford insurance.

Once again, one of the lies of Obamacare was that it was meant to cover the poor. It wasn't. The poor were already covered, and if what was needed was to raise the income level eligible for assistance, then that could have been done -- raise that level 10%? 20%? But, no - that wasn't the purpose. The reason Obamacare had to be structured the way it was, was quite simply - and indisputably - it's in reasonable dispute - it's a "consensus" if you will - quite simply most of the "uninsured" could afford it, but chose not to buy it. I've posted endless sources for that. The Obama administrations own numbers bore that out.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 48555
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:16 am

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.
Why?
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"My penis is VERY small" - Cunt.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 19768
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:26 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:16 am
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.
Why?
Because libertarianism. Haven't you watched any of those Milton F. clips Coito Two has posted?

User avatar
Seabass
Posts: 3914
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:32 pm
About me: Natural instinct for science
Location: The River of Blood
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Seabass » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:31 am

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
I don't care whose it is, it does suck, but this post of yours is a pathetic load of bullshit. If that's what you thought it was, why the fuck would you have supported it ever?
I didn't support. It did result in tens of millions more people covered though, which I do support, even if it means my premiums go up (and btw, they did not triple in CA, but apparently they did in your Republican run state).
Hey, Torquemada, whaddaya say?
I just got back from the auto-da-fé.
Auto-da-fé, what's an auto-da-fé?
It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway...

"I am a sick man... I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."

“In the meantime, rest well and dream of large women.”

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 60463
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:45 am

All rEv and I are saying is that the Oz system, however imperfect, does not lead to the anxiety about medical costs and/or insurance that seems rife in the US. Perhaps Obamacare had serious flaws - so will its absence if it is simply removed. You need to start over, with a clean slate, and see if perhaps some sort of universal coverage, removed from the grasping capitalism of insurance companies, may not actually give you more bang for your buck...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 26359
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: Something something birds
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:16 am

Every country where healthcare works has some sort of mandate to pay for insurance or healthcare, or it's just taken in taxes in general. This going without paying and the "freedom not to participate" does not work.

Ours works, and the care providers are there. But only if you can pay. My out of pocket would be up to 6000 every year if I used it more than the one visit.
http://karireport.blogspot.com/ (:_funny_:)
http://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh!

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 16457
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by laklak » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:40 am

Well, I got my Medicare so I don't give a shit. And got my social security too, so all y'all youngsters can pay for my Viagra and diesel fuel. Work, you lazy slackers! Noses to the grindstone, you malingerers! Daddy needs a new 48 mile radar and Momma's gettin' frisky.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

User avatar
Joe
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:10 am
Location: The Hovel under the Mountain
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Joe » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:03 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:55 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:36 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:34 pm
JimC wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:21 pm
The civilised answer, of course, is free, universal health care for all. Taking care of other human beings should be a no-brainer...
Which country is the model for that?
Australia does it pretty well.
At least in comparison to the US. Healthcare is free to those on low incomes or pensions (via bulk billing or a healthcare card), and for most others is subsidised. Public hospital treatment is free. You can also take out health insurance and go private if you wish, so we haven't gone all Marxist on freedom of choice, either... :tea:
Doesn't sound like free universal healthcare for all, though. I thought that's what Joe said was needed.
Where did I say that? :think:

There's no such thing as free healthcare, though some funding schemes are better than others. :smoke:
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
"If you vote for idiots, idiots will run the country." - Dr. Kori Schake

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 10900
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijk beschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:28 am

I have just got the offers for my health care next year. This time every year you can change insurance free of charge. This is the competition bit.
The basic is €220 per month for the two of us. Own costs are €350 per year for certain treatments and medicines. We personal increase our cover for extra treatments such as physio and foreign travel. That costs us €150 for the two of us per month. That is everything covered. The insurance company has no say in the treatment only the doctors.
We operate a gate keeper system everything has to start with our GP. You cant go the hospital yourself and make an appointment.
There is no private care. Those who have problems paying for it can get non repayable subsides from social services.
Everyone has to be insured. Insurance companies cant refuse to insure you and cant charge extra only less than the agreed rate.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14409
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:15 am

Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:26 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:16 am
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.
Why?
Because libertarianism. Haven't you watched any of those Milton F. clips Coito Two has posted?
In the US, the health care system is simply too large - almost $10,000 per year per person, totally about 17% of the US economy. Too big. The numbers don't work. Doctors would leave the industry because if you implement UHC, then you have to severely restrict compensation to health care practitioners. Also, without tort and lawsuit reform, doctors (with severely limited compensation) will still be faced with massive malpractice obligations. In the US, such a system would inevitably result in over-regulation. Massive increase in taxes. Significant risk of higher inflation on all products due to government having to print money to pay for universal health care.
While of course today’s bloated, opaque payment pipeline leads to waste and is in need of serious reform, Americans ought to think carefully before allowing Uncle Sam to dictate how much doctors and hospitals are reimbursed for their services. If the government doesn’t pay providers enough, the result will be shortages. Who cares if something is free or affordable if it’s not available?
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/ ... never-work

I think the issue is quite complicated. But, with the havoc wreaked on the system by Obamacare, it succeeded in its primary purpose - making a single-payer system the only viable option politically.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14409
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:26 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:28 am
I have just got the offers for my health care next year. This time every year you can change insurance free of charge. This is the competition bit.
The basic is €220 per month for the two of us. Own costs are €350 per year for certain treatments and medicines. We personal increase our cover for extra treatments such as physio and foreign travel. That costs us €150 for the two of us per month. That is everything covered. The insurance company has no say in the treatment only the doctors.
We operate a gate keeper system everything has to start with our GP. You cant go the hospital yourself and make an appointment.
There is no private care. Those who have problems paying for it can get non repayable subsides from social services.
Everyone has to be insured. Insurance companies cant refuse to insure you and cant charge extra only less than the agreed rate.
"Those who have problems paying for it can get non repayable subsides from social services." -- so, people who can't afford it, but don't meet the lower income thresholds are loaned money? They have to pay for it. So you have significant premiums, and if people who don't pay those premiums don't qualify for free health insurance they're forced to take out government "repayable subsidies" (loans) to repay it? What if they don't repay it?

Your premium is more than available full coverage premiums through the open market in 2014 in the US. It doesn't sound super-cheap. I'd be happy with those prices here - but, frankly, prices here were less than that just four-five years ago.

Now, with Obamacare, I pay about $1500 a month for my wife and two kids. I mean, that's just unacceptable. And it was Obama, Pelosi and the demcorats that knowingly did it. They knew that it would not reduce prices, and that it would increase prices for premiums - that's why generally speaking the promise was not for "cheaper" health insurance - it was for relative restructuring of premiums - so, lower income folks would pay more than before, but less if you measure it relative to the obscene premiums higher income people would pay.

I've never in my life been in a situation where health care was determined by an insurance company. Things may or may not be covered - and the fact is that even in "universal health care" systems, you don't have everything covered - the State determines what's covered and what isn't. If you think that in the US the doctor has to call the insurance company who determines what care you get, then that's another myth you have bought into.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14409
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:35 am

Joe wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:03 am
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:55 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:36 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:34 pm


Which country is the model for that?
Australia does it pretty well.
At least in comparison to the US. Healthcare is free to those on low incomes or pensions (via bulk billing or a healthcare card), and for most others is subsidised. Public hospital treatment is free. You can also take out health insurance and go private if you wish, so we haven't gone all Marxist on freedom of choice, either... :tea:
Doesn't sound like free universal healthcare for all, though. I thought that's what Joe said was needed.
Where did I say that? :think:
"The civilised answer, of course, is free, universal health care for all. Taking care of other human beings should be a no-brainer..." I guess I misinterpreted your statement that the civilized answer is "free, universal healthcare for all" to mean that you thought "free, universal healthcare for all" was needed. And, not just some healthcare at a cost.

There's no such thing as free healthcare, though some funding schemes are better than others. :smoke:
This I know. Hospitals cost money. Doctors need to be paid. You have multi-million dollar buildings, with pieces of equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, with doctors whose training cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and nurses and other specialists and assistants... It's going to cost money. That's why I have to kind of look on in amazement when someone says "oh, your system sucks! People have to pay money for it!" And, then they explain their glorious system as involving hundreds of dollars a month in premiums, with subsidies for the poor and loans for those who don't qualify for subsidies, and then they say that's what we should do, when our system was lambasted when we had (a) free healthcare for low income, elderly, disabled and children, and (b) available health insurance premiums that were less expensive than what, say, Dutchy, says he has to pay in the Netherlands now.

A few years ago, when I could go online and get a decent health insurance plan for $150 per month for a single person, that was not acceptable to the pro Obamacare folks and the Europeans were saying "that's ridiculous, you need universal healthcare." Now a single person needs to pay more like $450 a months, and everyone is like "whew! Good thing we have Obamacare guaranteeing health insurance for all!"
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14409
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:39 am

laklak wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:40 am
Well, I got my Medicare so I don't give a shit. And got my social security too, so all y'all youngsters can pay for my Viagra and diesel fuel. Work, you lazy slackers! Noses to the grindstone, you malingerers! Daddy needs a new 48 mile radar and Momma's gettin' frisky.
Viagra is not covered by Medicare. That's another lie sold all over the place -- that men's erectile dysfunction medications are generally covered by insurance or medicare. They aren't. There's that patriarchy, again.

Yes, we need a system that instead of letting people buy health insurance if they want for $150 a month per person, will force us to buy insurance for $450 per person! But, hey, it's fair. Everybody is covered, except the 30 million people who never enrolled because no matter what the government says, they don't want it. We paid a trillion dollars to make sure that 10,000,000 people were forced to buy coverage they didn't want.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hermit, jaydot, Rum and 5 guests