The US Healthcare Mass Debate

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Scot Dutchy
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:51 am

Once again a load of bollocks. You dont understand one thing do you. Social services pay for it. Who said anything about income levels? There are no repayable loans Once again your comprehension is very missing. Nothing new of course.
Why did I open your post expecting understanding? You cannot compare your lousy system to the best in Europe.
Insurance companies determine your treatment because your insurance does not cover everything by far. It is very basic so you have to contact the Insurance company to see if they will pay. It is not a myth.

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I wont open your post again.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:15 am
Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:26 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:16 am
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.
Why?
Because libertarianism. Haven't you watched any of those Milton F. clips Coito Two has posted?
In the US, the health care system is simply too large - almost $10,000 per year per person, totally about 17% of the US economy. Too big. The numbers don't work. Doctors would leave the industry because if you implement UHC, then you have to severely restrict compensation to health care practitioners. Also, without tort and lawsuit reform, doctors (with severely limited compensation) will still be faced with massive malpractice obligations. In the US, such a system would inevitably result in over-regulation. Massive increase in taxes. Significant risk of higher inflation on all products due to government having to print money to pay for universal health care.
While of course today’s bloated, opaque payment pipeline leads to waste and is in need of serious reform, Americans ought to think carefully before allowing Uncle Sam to dictate how much doctors and hospitals are reimbursed for their services. If the government doesn’t pay providers enough, the result will be shortages. Who cares if something is free or affordable if it’s not available?
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/ ... never-work

I think the issue is quite complicated. But, with the havoc wreaked on the system by Obamacare, it succeeded in its primary purpose - making a single-payer system the only viable option politically.
Yes. Exactly. That is what I summarised in two words: Because libertarianism.

Funny how a tax funded universal health care system works reasonably well in countries that are not as completely beholden to Milton Friedmanism as yours while still subscribing to capitalism. Our doctors are not enslaved to the state, nor are they afraid of ambulance chasing lawyers, and yet health care outcomes tend to be better. Look at the list of countries by infant and under-five mortality rates, for instance. 32nd place is not a particularly great rank to be happy with. While there are some discrepancies regarding the criteria by which those statistics are determined, I doubt the US would do better than move a few places up after making suitable adjustments.

Add to that the fact that the inability of paying medical bills is the most common cause of US citizens being forced into declaring themselves bankrupt, I can only conclude that libertarianism is the prime cause of your health care system being royally fucked, and yes, that sorry state of affairs precedes Obama's attempt to fix it.

Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:51 pm

Hermit wrote:Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
Just put him on ignore. He will adjust and change any reply you make. Like in my reply to him I never mentioned income levels and repayable loans but yet he writes about them in his reply to me without any references.
It is his most common trick. He is not worth having any discussion with.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Non taxpayer funded non-universal healthcare worked reasonably well in the US.

And, the US is not in the least completely beholden to Milton Friedmanism - would 'twere it was beholden.

Our doctors are not enslaved to the State, and weren't before, nor were they afraid of ambulance chasing lawyers, and our injured and victims of malpractice received decent compensation for their injuries - they didn't have to help pay for the healthcare system by taking artificially low compensation for their lifetime injuries.

We've addressed infant and under five mortality rates on other threads, and the numbers are not comparable for a variety of reasons. The US does more to save infants than most other countries, and we categorize newborns as live births more strictly than other countries. Some countries won't categorize them as live births unless they survive for a period of time outside the womb, whereas the US categorizes a live birth as such if any life-sign exists, no matter how brief. In other words, the US considers more babies to be live births, and more babies survive for short periods of time because of the additional efforts made to try to save low-probability-of-survival babies. As is often the case, the US numbers are more accurate, and stricter, than many other countries's numbers.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:51 pm
Hermit wrote:Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
Just put him on ignore.
No. As I mentioned numerous times already, I disagree with almost every assertion Coito Two makes, and his arguments are in my opinion more often than not based on untenable assumptions, but they are way more intelligently and coherently argued than yours, let alone than those of our participant posting from the vicinity of Yellowknife.

In short, if I started populating my ignore list, Coito Two would not be the first cab off the rank.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:37 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Add to that the fact that the inability of paying medical bills is the most common cause of US citizens being forced into declaring themselves bankrupt, I can only conclude that libertarianism is the prime cause of your health care system being royally fucked, and yes, that sorry state of affairs precedes Obama's attempt to fix it.

Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
You are under the ridiculous assumption that the US has a libertarian system at all, much less a libertarian health care system. Only a complete idiot would think that, or someone with an agenda and a desire to put their fingers in their ears to avoid hearing something that goes against their preconceived notion.

And, you can fuck right off with your bullshit about usual wall of words. If you're too stupid to follow reasoned analysis, and applicable links, which support and demonstrate an argument, don't blame me. That's on you. If you think that addressing the issues of health care and health insurance can be handled with short quips and witty little statements, or sarcastic bullcrap - as is your normal practice - then that too is on you. That's your problem. You want to sit there and say "the US health care system sucks because it's libertarian and run like Milton Friedman would recommend" that's your fucking ridiculous misconception. Nobody with a brain thinks that's the case.

And, if I stopped reading your posts at the first sign of bullshit, I'd not get past the first line.

Maybe if you had an attention span greater than a gnat, or the ability to think logically and rationally on an issue, rather than constantly getting as overly-emotional as a toddler who just had a toy taken away, you'd be able to think about issues calmly.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:42 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:36 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:51 pm
Hermit wrote:Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
Just put him on ignore.
No. As I mentioned numerous times already, I disagree with almost every assertion Coito Two makes, and his arguments are in my opinion more often than not based on untenable assumptions, but they are way more intelligently and coherently argued than yours, let alone than those of our participant posting from the vicinity of Yellowknife.

In short, if I started populating my ignore list, Coito Two would not be the first cab off the rank.
Untenable assumptions, like that the US is a Milton Friedman-esque libertarian wonderland?

Anyway, perhaps if we can just stop using silly labels to declare other people's arguments invalid, and actually ADDRESS the arguments, then we could finish a discussion.

I guarantee we agree on a lot of things, not that agreement needs to matter. There is a lot less to talk about with people one agrees with, than with one disagrees with, and none of this has to get personal, as if you and I are at war because we disagree politically. I like people who disagree with me. The only thing that gets me riled up is when people start fucking namecalling and harping on me personally, rather than just discussing the issue.

So, I'll lay off laying into you, if you'll stop it with the hostile namecalling.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:45 pm

I see so he is more to your low level of snidey remarks. I had you for better but there you are. You agree with a lowly arsed Trump supporter. Well done.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by laklak » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Depends on your Medicare supplement plan. Yeah, Medicare is "free", if you don't want prescription coverage and can afford the 20% co-pay. I got a Plan F supplement, that covers pretty much everything at 100%. No deductibles, no co-pays, and no plan limits. But it costs $206 a month. That's a shitload cheaper than I can get coverage anywhere else, but it's STILL more than I paid for really good insurance before Obamacare.

The Plan F policies are being phased out in 2020 because they're too good and too expensive for the insurance companies, but if you're enrolled you're grandfathered in and they have to cover you till you croak. The premium is locked in too, so they can't raise it other than by the consumer price index.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:21 pm

200 Yankee dollars a month? Jeebus. The max monthly premium for healthcare here in British Columbia is less than 40 in our funny money.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by laklak » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:40 pm

Hell, I look at $200 as a steal. Our premiums were $1100 a month after Obama made healthcare affordable. Prior to that it was $400. Apparently tripling your premiums is "affordable" in the Democrat mind, because fairness.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:29 pm

It would be interesting to see the total amount of money sucked from the American population into the profits of private insurance companies...
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:18 pm

laklak wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:40 pm
Hell, I look at $200 as a steal. Our premiums were $1100 a month after Obama made healthcare affordable. Prior to that it was $400. Apparently tripling your premiums is "affordable" in the Democrat mind, because fairness.
I need to get that deal. But I thought you were going to Swaziland? Their witch doctors are the best! Better than South Africa.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:29 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:37 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Add to that the fact that the inability of paying medical bills is the most common cause of US citizens being forced into declaring themselves bankrupt, I can only conclude that libertarianism is the prime cause of your health care system being royally fucked, and yes, that sorry state of affairs precedes Obama's attempt to fix it.

Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
You are under the ridiculous assumption that the US has a libertarian system at all, much less a libertarian health care system. Only a complete idiot would think that, or someone with an agenda and a desire to put their fingers in their ears to avoid hearing something that goes against their preconceived notion.

And, you can fuck right off with your bullshit about usual wall of words. If you're too stupid to follow reasoned analysis, and applicable links, which support and demonstrate an argument, don't blame me. That's on you. If you think that addressing the issues of health care and health insurance can be handled with short quips and witty little statements, or sarcastic bullcrap - as is your normal practice - then that too is on you. That's your problem. You want to sit there and say "the US health care system sucks because it's libertarian and run like Milton Friedman would recommend" that's your fucking ridiculous misconception. Nobody with a brain thinks that's the case.

And, if I stopped reading your posts at the first sign of bullshit, I'd not get past the first line.

Maybe if you had an attention span greater than a gnat, or the ability to think logically and rationally on an issue, rather than constantly getting as overly-emotional as a toddler who just had a toy taken away, you'd be able to think about issues calmly.
That was Scot Dutchy level ranting.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:31 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:45 pm
I see so he is more to your low level of snidey remarks. I had you for better but there you are. You agree with a lowly arsed Trump supporter. Well done.
If nothing else, 42 at least attempts to construct a reasoned argument to back his claims. You, on the other hand, just ejaculate baseless assertions and couldn't reason your way out of a wet paper bag.
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